cost of heating/cooling - piston CC tuba design

[ArnoldGottlieb]

I find this an interesting question as I toured basically one two and three nighters through the US this spring in different climates and temperatures and am about to do it this fall. There were times my slide was so far out I worried it would fall. Also, my own preference for practicing the bass or tuba is no AC, only fans, for personal and health reasons. My slide is out for practice and in for gigs, but the horn certainly plays differently, this summer as it's gotten hotter I've wished I had some sort of 'slide extension' or maybe an extra slide to use when I need a longer one. Orchestral bass players have summer and winter soundposts and bridges, maybe the brass section will have 2 sets of slides in the future. Wow Joe, thinking out loud has given me a project in my head for someone to build, interested?

[Mojo workin']

Will natural gas/oil prices drop enough...and/or will the U.S. ever "get over it" and construct a couple hundred new nuclear plants...or will we revisit our incredibly vast coal reserves...whereas the questions I pose will be moot?

If a certain political stripe ever agrees to the building of these plants, or to offshore or ANWR drilling. Or even to modernization of oil refineries. Any of these would be a step in the direction of cheaper energy.

On the other hand, I've got four fingers and a thumb.....

[Sam Gnagey]

I've encountered this problem with the horns that I design and build. I've come up with a pretty simple solution: have a long slide for summer, high temperature, use and a short slide for winter use. Last week I had a day of recording in an air conditioned studio where the short slide was perfect. That night I had an outdoor band concert where I used the long slide. If the trend continues as you pridict I'll offer a two slide option for players expected to play at 440 in a 20+ degree termperature range. My short slides will only pull out about 1-3/4 inches.

[MartyNeilan]

I've encountered this problem with the horns that I design and build. I've come up with a pretty simple solution: have a long slide for summer, high temperature, use and a short slide for winter use.

Bingo. Lots o dem Euro-peenin' horns ship with the option of either a longer "American" tuning slide or their standard shorter Euro slide. Even the horizontal slide Mira-ph-fone tubas do this - you can see the difference in the length of the brass tubes on the part that you pull.
I have always felt the 'Merican slides to be a little long anyway, so there you have your longer hot slide (Yankee A~440ish) your shorter cold slide (Euro A~442ish).
Reminds me of the deceased eco-unfriendly McDLT - keep the hot side hot and the cold side cold.


Marty "who is home sick today and could use some of Bloke's meds"

[Dan Schultz]

I just shipped an Allora 191 (Mirafone clone) to a fellow along with a short and a long slide. The horn was a little sharp for my liking and that nice fellow at WW/BW... Roger Lewis... fixed me up with one of the longer Mirafone 191 slides that slipped right into the Allora 191. The idea of having two main tuning slides is a very good one if there's not enough slide to cover both ends of the desired frequency.

[Tubaing]

I just had an amazing idea!



Some type of "Hot/Cold tuning loop".

[Bill Troiano]

So, I have wondered for a while, and this post by Bloke, makes me ask, does humidity affect pitch too, or is it just temperature? A few times, I found myself in a situation where it was in the low 70's, but very humid and uncomfortable. I felt like I kept wanting to pull my main slide out, but it could have been that the people I was playing with at the time were playing flat. Just wondering.

[Dan Schultz]

..... does humidity affect pitch too, or is it just temperature?

Every change in the air sound waves are traveling through tends to change the pitch somewhat. The temperature variations are actually affecting the density of the air. Same goes for humidity. All factors affect the speed of sound thereby affecting the pitch. Acoustics is a very in-depth study. Ambient noise also can change pitch. There are no short, concise answers other than 'yes'....

[iiipopes]

At an outdoor gig on a brisk October day last fall, I had the slide of my 38K only @ 3/8 inch out. From its many years of fall football field marching band duty, it actually has a permanent discoloration on the main tuning slide at that point.

Last week, I played it at the regional county fair where I live. Temperatures soared. I started out warming up in the shade and pulled about an inch to an inch and a quarter. By the end of the parade, with the direct sun beating on the bell, bugle and the rest of it, I was pulled out about two inches. If I had time, I would have adjusted the individual valve slides to match.

The short + long tuning slide option for extreme temperature differentials is a great idea, especially if you play in an area where for "presence" of sound, the director tends to take everything up to A=442, or if you're playing in an ensemble (like I have been in) where really nobody knows that you...you know what I mean!

[Allen]

This appears to be a mislabeled topic. I opened it up and expected to find a discussion concerning heating and cooling tubas. Instead, all I found was talk about Air temperatures! So, to get us on-topic:

Tubas could easily be heated or cooled by wraping small-bore tubing around the bows and valves. Circulate chlled water in the Summer, and heated water in the Winter. Surely, enterprising vendors could develop small and portable heating & cooling units for the purpose. Then, one can make gross adjustments of pitch with the tuning slides, and make fine adjustments with slight thermostat tweaks.

Of course, I know I'll be accused of suggesting something boring. However, it could be more interesting. How about cold beer in the Summer and either mulled wine or hot toddy in the winter? That way, one could support both even temperature of the tuba, and even temperament of the tubist (let's stay away from mean tone).

Yours in a spirit of invention,
Allen

[Rick Denney]

Tubas could easily be heated or cooled by wraping small-bore tubing around the bows and valves. Circulate chlled water in the Summer, and heated water in the Winter. Surely, enterprising vendors could develop small and portable heating & cooling units for the purpose. Then, one can make gross adjustments of pitch with the tuning slides, and make fine adjustments with slight thermostat tweaks.

It's too simple.

Rick "an engineer" Denney

[SplatterTone]

There are some rather sophisticated multi-heating element, electronic temperature control, battery powered, anti-dew systems for amateur telescopes.

[TubaRay]

Will natural gas/oil prices drop enough...and/or will the U.S. ever "get over it" and construct a couple hundred new nuclear plants...or will we revisit our incredibly vast coal reserves...whereas the questions I pose will be moot?

If a certain political stripe ever agrees to the building of these plants, or to offshore or ANWR drilling. Or even to modernization of oil refineries. Any of these would be a step in the direction of cheaper energy.
On the other hand, I've got four fingers and a thumb.....

It's too simple.

Ray "not an engineer" Grim

[MartyNeilan]

...or will we revisit our incredibly vast coal reserves...whereas the questions I pose will be moot?

If a certain political stripe ever agrees to the building of these plants, or to offshore or ANWR drilling. Or even to modernization of oil refineries. Any of these would be a step in the direction of cheaper energy.
On the other hand, I've got four fingers and a thumb.....

It's too simple.

Ray "not an engineer" Grim

China burns a lot of coal. I know of musicians who will not go there to tour or teach because the air quality is so bad.

[TonyZ]

Simple solution..... Convince who-ever is giving the tuning pitch to adjust for the temperature.
RC

HA!!! I know from experience that that will not happen!!!!

[windshieldbug]

... and I thought that this would be just another HB2-like thread...

viewtopic.php?p=249993#p249993" target="_blank

[MaryAnn]

China burns a lot of coal. I know of musicians who will not go there to tour or teach because the air quality is so bad.

Have you seen all the news coverage about athletes who are going to stay out of Beijing as much as possible, being there only for their events? And at least one who is not going to run the marathon because of the pollution.

While coal emissions can be cleaned up, I don't see China doing that any time soon. I wonder if they anticipated the horrible press they are getting because of the pollution. They just HATE to look bad, and I suspect that all the media coverage is at least somewhat politcally motivated.

And what I'm going to say next (and not as part of my reply to Marty) will probably cause the thread to be locked, but some of us of a particular mindset are a lot more interested in preserving what's left of the planet than in having cheap energy. The problem is that we breed like bunnies and use our religions as excuses to do so.

MA

[ArnoldGottlieb]

China burns a lot of coal. I know of musicians who will not go there to tour or teach because the air quality is so bad.

Have you seen all the news coverage about athletes who are going to stay out of Beijing as much as possible, being there only for their events? And at least one who is not going to run the marathon because of the pollution.

While coal emissions can be cleaned up, I don't see China doing that any time soon. I wonder if they anticipated the horrible press they are getting because of the pollution. They just HATE to look bad, and I suspect that all the media coverage is at least somewhat politcally motivated.

And what I'm going to say next (and not as part of my reply to Marty) will probably cause the thread to be locked, but some of us of a particular mindset are a lot more interested in preserving what's left of the planet than in having cheap energy. The problem is that we breed like bunnies and use our religions as excuses to do so.

MA

MA,
Thanks for saying that.
Peace. (now that's simple)
ASG

[TubaRay]

Surely anyone who believes they are contributing to global overcrowding and pollution can come up with a quick exit strategy...(or at least completely stop consuming resources, goods, and services)

bloke "ahhhh...more for *me* "

I strongly suspect that if the vast majority of "environmentalists" (along with their power structure-aligned ilk) were forced to use as few resources, goods, and services as do my family and I, they would squeal like l'il piggies.

Are you trying to say that one should not ride in a private jet telling others to be green? (I'm speaking hypothetically, of course)

[Dean E]

. . . . Many of our recently-designed larger CC tubas are piston models with extremely short tuning slides. The practical tuning range on many of these instruments is only about 2 inches. This is the "trumpet equivalent" of 1/2 of an inch! Even if these slides are 2-1/2 to 3 inches long, (assuming proper alignment) we risk losing our slides on the floor if trying to tune to A=440 above 80 F. . . .

Nice to know that a short tuning slide is not my imagination on my Swiss-made, 5/4 rotary CC.

My solution is to use one or two sousa tuning bits, depending on the outside temperature.