Tuba Bores
- TubaCoopa
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Tuba Bores
Would someone mind explaining exactly what the bore size numbers actually mean and how they are measured? Also, a list of typically used bore sizes and their pros/cons (if any) would be extremely helpful.
- Brucom
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Tuba Bores.
Poor choice of words on your Topic.
Could be construed as a sentence.
Could be construed as a sentence.
B&S Sonora, 4 Rotary CC
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Re: Tuba Bores.
Brucom wrote:Poor choice of words on your Topic.
Could be construed as a sentence.
Actually, I pretty much assumed from his topic that it would be a question about what bore measurements are.....usually people who are more familiar with this subject use an VERY specific topic question anyway.
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Brooke Pierson
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- Todd S. Malicoate
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Re: Tuba Bores
Tuba Boars?
- imperialbari
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Re: Tuba Bores
The Piggy is a sousaphone?
- Dan Schultz
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Re: Tuba Bores
A few months back, someone posted the same question and one of the TubaNet guys started building a list of bore sizes and manufacturers. I don't know how far the list went and you might try searching here for it.
Here's the start of that list...
.656 (Conn small bore) = 16.66mm
.687 (King) = 17.45mm
.689 (Besson Eb, M-W Bell and others) = 17.5mm
.708 = 18mm (A lot of F tubas, some smaller BBb)(or .709, depending on which way you round off or up)
.728 (Yammy piston & others) = 18.5
.730 (Besson BBb comp, Martin, Buescher) = 18.54
.734 (Conn souzy) = 18.64
.748 = 19mm
.750 (a lot of different makers) = 19.05mm
.768 = 19.5mm
.770 (Conn 2XJ pistons & Miraphone rotors) = 19.56mm
.772 = 19.61mm
.787 = 20mm
.795 = 20.19mm
.807 (smaller Alex bore, I believe) = 20mm
.812 = 20.62mm
.827 = 21mm
.835 = 21.21mm
.846 = 21.5 mm
.866 = 22 mm
Here's the start of that list...
.656 (Conn small bore) = 16.66mm
.687 (King) = 17.45mm
.689 (Besson Eb, M-W Bell and others) = 17.5mm
.708 = 18mm (A lot of F tubas, some smaller BBb)(or .709, depending on which way you round off or up)
.728 (Yammy piston & others) = 18.5
.730 (Besson BBb comp, Martin, Buescher) = 18.54
.734 (Conn souzy) = 18.64
.748 = 19mm
.750 (a lot of different makers) = 19.05mm
.768 = 19.5mm
.770 (Conn 2XJ pistons & Miraphone rotors) = 19.56mm
.772 = 19.61mm
.787 = 20mm
.795 = 20.19mm
.807 (smaller Alex bore, I believe) = 20mm
.812 = 20.62mm
.827 = 21mm
.835 = 21.21mm
.846 = 21.5 mm
.866 = 22 mm
Dan Schultz
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Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
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http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
- windshieldbug
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Re: Tuba Bores
The problem with tuba "bore size"s is that horns differ wildly in where the valves occur in the over-all bore profile. This means that one cannot directly compare piston valves to rotary valves (and many of the variations within each type).
What this ends up like is "comparing" a trumpet valve bore to a flugelhorn valve bore, and trying to make any meaningful sound and response prediction based solely on that number.
What this ends up like is "comparing" a trumpet valve bore to a flugelhorn valve bore, and trying to make any meaningful sound and response prediction based solely on that number.
- Wyvern
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Re: Tuba Bores
And the bore size is only one factor which affects the size of tone. Of equal, if not greater importance is leadpipe profile, bottom bow size and bell diameter.windshieldbug wrote:The problem with tuba "bore size"s is that horns differ wildly in where the valves occur in the over-all bore profile. This means that one cannot directly compare piston valves to rotary valves (and many of the variations within each type).
e.g. The B&S Neptune, PT-6 and PT-20 all have the same bore size, but produce their hugely differing sounds due to the other variations.
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Re: Tuba Bores
So does bore size have anything to do with 3/4, 4/4, etc. designation? In other words, 4/4's fall into one area of bore sizes, x to y, and 5/4's fall under y through z, and anything bigger is a 6/4, or something like that?
- Wyvern
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Re: Tuba Bores
No link - your 3/4 size PT-3 has the same bore size (same valve block) as the 6/4 Neptune. The quarter sizes only give loose indication of the overall size.Nick Pierce wrote:So does bore size have anything to do with 3/4, 4/4, etc. designation?
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Re: Tuba Bores
Thanks.Neptune wrote:No link - your 3/4 size PT-3 has the same bore size (same valve block) as the 6/4 Neptune. The quarter sizes only give loose indication of the overall size.Nick Pierce wrote:So does bore size have anything to do with 3/4, 4/4, etc. designation?
As a side note, I'm not actually sure my PT-3 is a 3/4, it looks to be the same size in ever respect to most 4/4's I've seen. Possible explanation is that it is a very old horn. On the bell it says "Made in the German Democratic Republic." Anyone with knowledge of those old horns with input I would appreciate.
- The Jackson
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Re: Tuba Bores
x/4 sizes are entirely up to the maker. Best case is Rudy Meinl. Their 5/4 model is as is big as if not bigger than many "6/4" tubas.
The main tuning slide on a Yamaha YCB-661 (in general size, about a 3.75/4 to the eye) will actually swallow up a tuning slide from a Rudy Meinl 5/4, so there is no relation. All we have are rough, common estimation (Miraphone 186 = 4/4). I believe there was an extensive chart full of x/4 sizes in a thread from a little while back.
The main tuning slide on a Yamaha YCB-661 (in general size, about a 3.75/4 to the eye) will actually swallow up a tuning slide from a Rudy Meinl 5/4, so there is no relation. All we have are rough, common estimation (Miraphone 186 = 4/4). I believe there was an extensive chart full of x/4 sizes in a thread from a little while back.
- Rick Denney
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Re: Tuba Bores
Bore size is standardized on the inside diameter of the second-valve slide. In my view, the only thing it describes with any usefulness is the inside diameter of the second valve slide.
There is no relationship between bore size and the quarters used to generally categorize the size of various tubas, other than by the usual incidence of small bore valve tubing with small tubas. It's not the .656" bore that makes the Conn a sub-4/4 instrument, but rather the smaller overall size. A Cerveny Piggy, which is often classed as a 3/4, has a very large bore. The CSO Yorks, the very archetype of 6/4 tubas, have a bore smaller than a Cerveny Piggy. QED.
Of course, the quarter system is mostly used to distinguish instruments within a given manufacturer's line, and have only the most general meaning when comparing instruments of different makers. A 6/4 Rudy Meinl provides its own gravitational system, and a Holton 345, which is certainly in medal contention for the largest production Bb tubas in history, could be one of the satellites that might orbit the Rudy within that gravitational field.
I have played instruments with smaller bores that were wonderfully resonant and instruments with larger bores that felt like they were stuffed with pillows. So, while I may look at bore size the way a cat fancier might categorize feline markings, I consider only personality and disposition when deciding which cat to make a pet.
Rick "who knows better than to discuss bore size among non-tuba-players capable of the double entrende" Denney
There is no relationship between bore size and the quarters used to generally categorize the size of various tubas, other than by the usual incidence of small bore valve tubing with small tubas. It's not the .656" bore that makes the Conn a sub-4/4 instrument, but rather the smaller overall size. A Cerveny Piggy, which is often classed as a 3/4, has a very large bore. The CSO Yorks, the very archetype of 6/4 tubas, have a bore smaller than a Cerveny Piggy. QED.
Of course, the quarter system is mostly used to distinguish instruments within a given manufacturer's line, and have only the most general meaning when comparing instruments of different makers. A 6/4 Rudy Meinl provides its own gravitational system, and a Holton 345, which is certainly in medal contention for the largest production Bb tubas in history, could be one of the satellites that might orbit the Rudy within that gravitational field.
I have played instruments with smaller bores that were wonderfully resonant and instruments with larger bores that felt like they were stuffed with pillows. So, while I may look at bore size the way a cat fancier might categorize feline markings, I consider only personality and disposition when deciding which cat to make a pet.
Rick "who knows better than to discuss bore size among non-tuba-players capable of the double entrende" Denney
- iiipopes
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Re: Tuba Bores
I can be a real tuba bore....
Hey 'tinker -- yeah, that was me. Has anybody anything to add to the list?
Walter Nirschl seems to be using .750 for his primary bore to his WN15 & WN18.
Hey 'tinker -- yeah, that was me. Has anybody anything to add to the list?
Walter Nirschl seems to be using .750 for his primary bore to his WN15 & WN18.
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Re: Tuba Bores
Bore size apparently is of more value in cylindrical bore instruments than conical. Is this true? If so, is it because of the relative location of the 2nd valve slide within the bugle? Would this be the reason that the tubas with the short leadpipes( ie. most piston horns) tend to have bores smaller than their playing characterisitcs? Just asking. I'm not smart enough to figure this stuff out on my own.
I am fortunate to have a great job that feeds my family well, but music feeds my soul.
- iiipopes
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Re: Tuba Bores
I wouldn't say it's of more or less value, because bore size is way down on the list of what influences tone and intonation, after such things as leadpipe geometry, bugle taper, throat, bell size & geometry, bracing and node/antinode interaction; etc.
Jupiter JTU1110, RT-82.
"Real" Conn 36K.
"Real" Conn 36K.
- windshieldbug
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Re: Tuba Bores
I think that bore size is a much better predictor of performance for instruments of like design... say trumpets. There, the valves occur generally in the same place, manufacturer to manufacturer, the bore profiles are more alike, the bell flares are pretty much the same, etc.
That all being true, one can MUCH BETTER compare anticipated sound and reaction.
That all being true, one can MUCH BETTER compare anticipated sound and reaction.
Instead of talking to your plants, if you yelled at them would they still grow, but only to be troubled and insecure?
- Dan Schultz
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Re: Tuba Bores
I haven't noted any new additions. Maybe it's time to ask again.iiipopes wrote:I can be a real tuba bore....
Hey 'tinker -- yeah, that was me. Has anybody anything to add to the list?...
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker"
http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
"The Village Tinker"
http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
- TubaCoopa
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Re: Tuba Bores
Now that I know what bore sizes are, is there any difference in the sound based on the different sizes? If not, then why not have just one standard size?
- Rick Denney
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Re: Tuba Bores
0.748" is about as close to a standard size as there is. Every tuba that uses either Nirschl or Meinl-Weston valves has that bore, and that includes many instruments that don't have those labels. Most German piston tubas use them. 0.687-0.690 is another standard, which covers King and several of the more respected Yamaha models.TubaCoopa wrote:Now that I know what bore sizes are, is there any difference in the sound based on the different sizes? If not, then why not have just one standard size?
I expect these two sizes cover the vast majority of piston tubas currently made.
In the past, it was not so, but largely because each tuba was the product of its own evolution. Tubas are more modular now, especially piston tubas, because relatively few manufacturers make pistons.
All that said, the issue is not that bore size doesn't matter, but rather that bore size is just one small piece of the overall design of the instrument. What matters is the overall taper design, and the bore size can be arbitrarily chosen by where along that taper the valves are put.
(I'm not talking about extremes, particularly on the small end. A tuba with a half-inch bore would probably not work very well at all.)
More to the point, the dimensions of the second valve slide don't relate to any particular playing characteristics, and there is very little that is generally true about bore. I have played a Rudy Meinl 6/4, which has a bore of about a foot and a half, and not found that it required appreciably more air than my Holton, which its 3/4" bore. It's vast sound is more related to the garage-sized outer branches than to the valve bore. I don't find that my B&S Symphonie F tuba, which has the older, smaller bore in the first and fifth valves, any stuffier or smaller-sounding than a newer B&S. In fact, in some ways it is more resonant. I don't find that a King 2341 lacks horsepower because of its 0.689 bore compared with, say, my York Master with its 0.748" bore. The bore of a tuba is what it is, and the tuba either plays well or it doesn't. It's just a dimension taken at a somewhat arbitrary point along a continuous taper.
Rick "noting the many reasons for different bores other than sound or even playing characteristics" Denney