TubeNet

They are the "professional" tubas, so you should pay a "professional" price?

My guess is that they sell less units.

Manufacturer simply calculates unit cost = development/manufacturing cost divided by anticipated sales.

Less tubas sold = higher cost.

C tubas are priced higher because C tuba players are willing to pay more. There may be a range of other reasons related to cost (as opposed to price), but they stem from this simple fact.

Rick "thinking a $12,000 Bb tuba, no matter how great, won't find many buyers in the U.S., but a $4000 tuba of good quality will" Denney

James,

Since you're still in college, go take some economics classes. Really. I'm not making fun of you. I'm dead serious. Drop music classes if you have to. If you listen and study hard, you'll learn more that will be useful to you in your everyday life than any other class you'll take in college, especially as a music major.

--Christian

I put "professional" in quotes to show that I was using it as a term other people use. I'm well aware that there are many professional-leve BBb horns.

I'm just saying that, if I were in charge of a big-name tuba brand, I would make the CC model more expensive than the BBb to reach the "CC is the only way to go" crowd (in the very least, that is). Sure, there could be some that feel that a CC version of a horn plays better than the BBb, and that's fine.

I hope I don't start a BBb vs. CC discussion, because that was not my intention at all.

tubashaman wrote:However, the 1291 BBb and CC I believe is a near equal seller

You may be right. But given that Bb tuba players out-number C tuba players probably by 10:1, it should sell a lot better. I suspect the Bb tuba sales are depressed by the high price, and C tuba sales are good because of its relatively low price and good quality.

In the not-so-old old days, nobody wanted a Miraphone 186 C because it was too cheap, and therefore it wasn't cool or posh enough for pro wannabes. (Lots of pros used them, of course, though maybe not so many orchestra pros.) Had Miraphone made a few changes and charged a much higher price for the C than for the Bb, they might have actually sold more C's, because C tuba players are willing to pay more.

The King 2341 is not finished nearly as well as a Conn 56J, and the reason is that the Conn will fetch much higher prices which will allow Conn-Selmer to spend a little more on finish work. The King, if it's going to sell in the schools (and, no, I'm not talking about the tiny percentage of tuba player pro wannabes who study tuba in college, but rather than vast majority who play tuba for fun in high school), it has to be under $5000--or even less than that--and Conn Selmer just could not do much fine finish work and keep their costs low enough to allow that price.

All tuba sales are elastic. Nobody needs a tuba, not even pros who for the most part have them already. The only exceptions are a few college kids who only think they need tubas in the price range they are usually looking. When prices go up, sales go down. Even at the high end--how many have bought Yamayorks? The answer is as many as Yamaha can make, which isn't many, so they can charge $30,000 for one of them and not worry about having any left over. How many have bought Meinl-Weston 6450's? Despite the true greatness of that instrument, I'll bet your average Texas 5A high school has more tubas in the first concert band than have bought 6450's in the U.S.

Rick "buying and selling tubas since before James was born" Denney

tubashaman wrote:I think the 1291 BBb and CC are about equal selling, i do not know the stats

I took AP economics in HS, and i know about the supply demand curve.

Ummmmmm, OK, So apply it. Think of real reasons a CC tuba might cost more than a BBb. You really can answer your question for yourself.

If you think the sales numbers are the same, what actual facts do you base that thought on? I sincerely doubt anybody reading this has actual Miraphone sales numbers. I'm sure there are some folks that have US sales numbers for one shop or another, but I'd be willing to bet nobody reading this knows how many of which models Miraphone sells worldwide.

Do you realize that the US, while probably a big market for tuba sales, isn't the only place in the world. Do you realize that professionals in some other countries don't play CC tubas and that other countries have much different traditions than we do in the USA?

tubashaman wrote:For a equal quality horn.....I would think they would be the same price

From most accounts by folks who aren't biased towards either CC or BBb, the 1291 BBb is a slightly better horn. It should cost more, right?

Comparing prices across countries is a very complex equation...as someone who took AP economics, you should know that.

To the original question: C tubas cost more than Bb tubas because they are more highly valued (desired) by those who buy them. Price is determined by the marketplace, not the "value" of the components of whatever widget you're talking about. All the discussion and complaining in the world won't change that fact one bit.

As the parent of two young children who love their electric ride-on vehicles, I wonder the same thing about those Power Wheels you see at Wal-Mart for $300...they're made of about $10 worth of plastic parts.

tubashaman wrote:By going on what has been said:

That means the price of a CC tuba in germany, or a F tuba in england, would probably be even higher than in American, since Germany uses BBb mainly and england (bass tuba wise) mainly uses Eb.

Is there anyone who can verify this

That wasn't my point. Your observed demand for Miraphone 1291 tubas is incomplete because you don't have a view of the whole world's demand. Honestly, I would be surprised if anybody reading this does.

Miraphones are built in Waldkraiburg. They are built to order. They have to be shipped somewhere. If you want a Miraphone F tuba in England and a dealer will order it for you, it's not going to cost more just because you're located in a country where folks don't typically play F tubas.

Here's one reason a CC might cost more than a BBb, but there are plenty of others:

Assumptions:
(1) There is more worldwide demand for BBb tubas than CC tubas, therefore more BBbs will be sold than CCs.
(2) The cost to design a tuba whether in CC or BBb, is the same.

Therefore:
The development costs for the CC will have be spread across fewer sales, so to recoup those costs, they will have to cost more.

tubashaman wrote: a F tuba in england, would probably be even higher than in American

Most things cost more in England than America - including tubas!

Going back to the original question, there are a number of factors which effect the price including the tuba's perceived value to potential purchasers (what they are willing to pay), the relative supply and demand and competition (between manufacturers and dealers). You have got to remember that these companies exist to make money for their shareholders, so they will price to produce optimal profits balancing profit per item against number of sales. They can sell C tubas at higher price due to their higher perceived value as orchestral instruments, so that is what is charged.

tubashaman wrote:For a equal quality horn.....I would think they would be the same price

Hmm. I'm thinking back to when I was your age and how much Britsih-made sports cars cost. Quality, at least some of the time, has nothing to do with it.

Tubashaman - why don't you just email Roger @ WWBW and ask him?

brianggilbert wrote:Tubashaman - why don't you just email Roger @ WWBW and ask him?

This is a very good question, as Roger would be among the very best sources of being able to answer the question. On Tubenet, tubashamen will be unable to even view all of the answers, due to his using the "foes" list. Interesting, don't you think?

Supply/Demand, Cost/Price

It's not just tubas...

Look at trumpets. C trumpets so often use the same components as Bb's, so they should be should be the same price... right?

bloke wrote: Explain where I fit in the supply/demand curve:

OK, you only directed the question to two people, and posted it for reasons other than getting an answer . . .

But the answer is . . . "cheap bastard". What we all should be.

I've seen this question posed three or four times since I've been reading TubeNet. The finishing costs between a 2341 and a 5xJ is the only argument that makes sense to me. I have a hard time understanding why a Piggy costs so much more than a similar Cerveny horn keyed in BBb.

To put a rude point on the answer to the question, I think the reason why similar CC horns cost more than their BBb counterpart is the same reason why dogs like to lick their balls:

Because they can.

bloke wrote:cjk or Rick,

Explain where I fit in the supply/demand curve:

When I purchase a tuba for my own use, I have always already decided on ONE make and model - and it must be an exceptional example. I bide my time and wait for someone to be bleeding in a ditch on the side of the road - needing to sell their "whatever-that-particular-tuba" is, and I then snatch it very quickly at (what I perceive to be) below-market price.

Joe, you have the skillzzzzzz to take a pile of bent tubes and make a great horn out of the mess. The CC Marching Bloke-o-phone can't be bought anywhere at any price. I don't think you fit anyone's model.

The Big Ben wrote:
Because they can.

*Stands up and starts a slow clap*

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Comparing prices across countries is a very complex equation...as someone who took AP economics, you should know that.

Taking and passing the test does not equal understanding.

The Big Ben wrote:To put a rude point on the answer to the question, I think the reason why similar CC horns cost more than their BBb counterpart is the same reason why dogs like to lick their balls:

Because they can.

What's rude about that? They cost what customers will pay for them, just like anything else. The fact that a similar product (Bb tubas) costs less has nothing to do with it.

Some of the attitudes I've seen expressed on this topic remind me of high-volume customers in the auto parts business. They get furious when they find out their cost on an item is the same as "walk-in" price...they think they should get a discount on everything. They don't think about whether the actual price is fair or not, just if it's lower than someone else's price. Never mind the fact that to be competitive we often sell the product to retail customers at lower than suggested retail...obviously it would make them "feel" better if Joe walk-in customer paid a couple bucks more than them.

If you think the price of a C tuba you want is too high, do what customers have been doing for centuries...don't buy it.