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These questions are specifically for those of you who play in orchestras.

Does you orchestra have a written dress code? (If it does, would you please e-mail me a copy.)

Do you have different dress requirements for time of day, indoor vs. outdoor, etc.? What are they?

Do you have any kind of reimbursement for the purchase of concert dress clothes?

What happens if a musician comes to a concert not meeting your dress code?

Thank you, in advance, for your relevant, thoughtful and courteous answers.

Most orchestras I've played in required suits and long ties for concerts before 6 pm, and tuxedos with bow ties (usually black) for evening concerts. I'm speaking about men's attire here--------I can't remember the dress code for female players. (Maybe Mary Ann can chime in here-----she was a professional violinist in the Tucson Symphony.)

bloke wrote:In general, dress is never completely assumed. The personnel manager communicates the dress for each concert (no matter how routine) to the musicians.

This has been my experience in orchestras that I have subbed with. This is not something that is left to chance.

Thank you for the replies so far, especially Wade and Joe. As you may have guessed, I have "volunteered" to draft a written dress code.

We clearly announce the dress code at the last rehearsal before each concert and apparently some folks don't listen. The final straw was when a brass player, not tuba, showed up with no tie and wearing white socks (because that was all he could find).

Just an FYI - Target has a sale on tuxes right now. I was able to get a new wool tux for myself as well as one for my son the bassoon player (I'm so ashamed - my son plays double reeds. Where-oh-where did I go wrong?)

Total price for both (two jackets, two trousers) was around $135.00

http://www.target.com/gp/search/602-588 ... _1&x=0&y=0

(from out Master Agreement)

I. For Subscription series concerts. men shall wear black tails jacket, white bow tie, white vest or cummerbund, white shirt without ruffles, black tuxedo pants. black socks, and black dress shoes with black sided soles. Women shall wear black (knee length or lower when sitting) dress, skirt, or pants suit of formal, full cut design, with full or three quarter length sleeves, modest neckline, black dark or neutral hose, and black dress shoes with black heels and black sided soles. Blouses shall be all black, or black with white collars or white trim, or may be all white if worn with black jacket. No leotards glittering or light colored trim, accessories, headgear, or jewelry shall be worn. In all instances concert outfit should be in good taste and should match , in both style and fabric, the solemnity and elegance of the men's concert attire. It is preferred that no purses be carried on stage; however, if a purse is necessary, it shall be black and no larger than an average evening purse.

J. For Pops series concerts, men shall wear black tuxedo, black bow tie, black vest or cummerbund, white shirt without ruffles, black socks, and black dress shoes with black sided soles. For women, the dress shall be the same as the Subscription series concerts.

K. For any Daytime concerts, men shall wear a dark suit, dark four-in-hand ties, white shirt, black socks, and black shoes. For women, the dress shall be the same as for Pops series concerts, with the exception that the skirt of pants may also be dark.

L. Musicians shall be notified at least one (1) week in advance of the first rehearsal of a series if dress other than those outlined in Article IX, section I, J. or K is required. Musicians shall not be required to wear casual dress for performances without the approval of a majority of the Musicians performing those services.

M. If a Musician is found to be in violation of the dress code as outlined in Sections I-L above, a written notice will be given to the musician by the Association stating the specific violation.

Would someone mind educating me on what exactly a "four-in-hand ties" is? I've seen the term used a few times here and other place, but I'm not sure what it is in relation to ties in general. Thanks!

SoundMinistries wrote:Would someone mind educating me on what exactly a "four-in-hand ties" is?

What they mean is a long necktie, tied with a "four-in-hand" knot

SoundMinistries wrote:Would someone mind educating me on what exactly a "four-in-hand ties" is? I've seen the term used a few times here and other place, but I'm not sure what it is in relation to ties in general. Thanks!

This is a traditional tie. The name comes form the more common way of tying the tie. (For Rick: http://agsc.tamu.edu/lessonplan/file.as ... et="_blank).

Thank you. That is how I normally tie a tie, just didn't know that was what it was called.

Mark wrote:The final straw was when a brass player, not tuba, showed up with no tie and wearing white socks (because that was all he could find).

That's what you get for living in the Seattle area. During my visits to that area, I've noticed very little ability on the part of the natives to dress formally. I do not find it surprising that "grunge" originated there. I'm also envious.

I remember when our band in San Antonio went formal for the first time, using a performance for the Texas Bandmaster's Association as the motivation. We all bought tuxedos from Barry Manufacturing. The formal shirts came with plastic shirt studs that were only intended to make the shirt look like a formal shirt in the package. But surprisingly many of the musicians showed up with those black plastic ersatz shirt studs. In fact, I might have been one of them. The tux material was sheet plastic run through a mold to press in the pattern of weaving, or at least that's how it seemed in the steamy San Antonio heat. It was like wearing an insulated garbage bag.

I bought my current tux at Syms, and found one that is actually well-made (of breathable wool) for much less than the price of a good suit. But if you want quality accessories, they'll cost more than the tux.

Our rules specify black tie--code for a black dinner jacket (i.e., not tails) with a black bow tie. They don't specify the collar style, and I'm glad--I absolutely despise ascot (wing-collar) shirts. I also prefer a vest to a cummerbund.

On the subject of four-in-hand, when the wide end is held to keep an open loop through which the tail will be inserted in the last step, the shape of the tie being held resembles the numeral "4". That's why it's called "four in hand". I can tie those in my sleep, with one hand, while driving the car.

Rick "thinking Seattle has set the trend to (often excessively) casual dress" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: On the subject of four-in-hand, when the wide end is held to keep an open loop through which the tail will be inserted in the last step, the shape of the tie being held resembles the numeral "4". That's why it's called "four in hand".

That's one proposed, though doubtful, etymology.

Another is that it's the knot four-in-hand carriage drivers used tie the reins. Yet another is that it's the knot that the drivers of those carriages used to tie their scarves. (Incidentally, Prince Phillip of Great Britain is an accomplished four-in-hand driver and racer, although presumably, whatever knot he ties his ties with is a Windsor.) Still another is that it got its name from the Four-in-Hand Club in London (whose purpose is to promote coaching, organize drives, and preserve the traditions of coaching), whose members are purported to have made neckware fashionable.

Ace wrote:Most orchestras I've played in required suits and long ties for concerts before 6 pm, and tuxedos with bow ties (usually black) for evening concerts. I'm speaking about men's attire here--------I can't remember the dress code for female players. (Maybe Mary Ann can chime in here-----she was a professional violinist in the Tucson Symphony.)

I think you've got plenty to go on for the dress code, but I wanted to correct a minor inaccuracy....I was pro in the Albany, NY symphony orchestra, when I was quite a bit younger than I am now. 20 years ago I subbed for a few times one season in Tucson Symphony, and after that I didn't do any professional violining, instead finding my true calling as a brass player.

In all formal orchestral venues, it was "long black" for women; back in ASO days it was long back skirt, but by the TSO days it had become permissble to wear slacks, even a tux if you felt like it. Lately there has been a push to get the bare arms out of sight as well as the bare legs. Can't have the audience doing more looking than listening!

I still remember one fairly recent horn recital in which the lady solist seated on stage wore a short shirt and faced a particular segment of the audience, which was sparse, having only two guys sitting there. I observed what they must be seeing at eye level, looked at them, saw them sort of giggle at each other and then get up and move to another part of the seating area, out of the, ah, line of fire. Apparently they preferred to listen. I do not know what the lady was thinking when she decided what to wear; it wasn't as if being the soloist came as a surprise to her. From thence we have dress codes!

MA

bloke wrote:' appears to be the old "Cub Scout" way of tying a tie...(back when Cub Scouts were required to learn that)

bloke "as opposed to a 'Windsor' knot, which is a larger knot - and uses up much more of the tie."

I believe the 'four-in-hand' knot is also known as a half-Windsor. In a Windsor knot, you wrap it around on the other side, so the knot is symetrical, but much larger.

OldsRecording wrote:I believe the 'four-in-hand' knot is also known as a half-Windsor.

The four-in-hand is a single wrap knot; the half Windsor is a double wrap knot; so the four-in-hand knot is asymmetric, while properly tied half Windsor is symmetric.

Half Windsor:


Four-in-hand:

Rick Denney wrote:They don't specify the collar style, and I'm glad--I absolutely despise ascot (wing-collar) shirts.
Rick "thinking Seattle has set the trend to (often excessively) casual dress" Denney

Wing collar shirts should not even be an option for black tie dress, anyway. The cut away collar is only for white tie (and tails). But the formal shop will certainly sell you one with your tux (which is semi-formal, by the way).

TubaRay wrote:

bloke wrote:In general, dress is never completely assumed. The personnel manager communicates the dress for each concert (no matter how routine) to the musicians.

This has been my experience in orchestras that I have subbed with. This is not something that is left to chance.

while I am sure you are quite right, I beg to differ.

Let me explain.

One of my hobby-horses (I have a full stable) is the LACK of uniformity in the dress of women in the orchestra.

Just about every orchestra I've seen in the last 20 years or so has exhibited the same effect. The men are dressed nearly identically, while the women appear in "just about anything, as long as it's Black". Lengths, textures, accessories, EVERYTHING varies wildly across the stage. You even see the occasional handbag out on stage - sometimes under the seat, sometimes slung across the back of the chair.

This leads to the natural question: what is the *point* of an orchestra dress code? I always assumed that one purpose was to achieve a level of uniformity (and blandness - so the MUSIC was the center of attention). If that's the purpose...it ain't happening.

If it's simply to indicate a certain level of *formality* and for the orchestra to always be dressed "one level more formal than the audience" - but otherwise reflect the normal day-to-day variation in men and women's dress - then I suppose this is OK. But, somehow I had come to expect *uniformity* rather than "in the right general ballpark".

the elephant wrote:

It is very revealing by the careful descriptions just what both our groups have had to deal with in the past. As we say here, "Nearly every word in the Master Agreement is in direct response to things that have actually occurred." If it says that we are not required to play outdoor services while snow is falling it is because the management has actually tried to do this in the past. Ridiculous, but true.

There is a saying in aviation: "Every checklist is written in blood"

Rick Denney wrote:
Our rules specify black tie--code for a black dinner jacket (i.e., not tails) with a black bow tie. They don't specify the collar style, and I'm glad--I absolutely despise ascot (wing-collar) shirts.

How very "old school" of you.

I like that about you.

"wing-collars" are *not* "Black Tie". Period.

Personally, I blame the high school band directors.

[you do know that "Black Tie" is "Semi-Formal", don't you?]

sungfw wrote:

OldsRecording wrote:I believe the 'four-in-hand' knot is also known as a half-Windsor.

The four-in-hand is a single wrap knot; the half Windsor is a double wrap knot; so the four-in-hand knot is asymmetric, while properly tied half Windsor is symmetric.

Half Windsor:


Four-in-hand:

I stand corrected.