TubeNet

OK, TubeNet 'freak jury'.... tell me what this one is:





It's very similar to the B & S stencils... aka Sonora, Carl Wunderlich, Gerhart Schneider, etc.... but it also has some Alexander characteristics. There are no markings anywhere. The bore is 19mm. The bell is nearly identical to a Mirafone 186 bell... 16 3/4" diameter and has a 15" circumference throat where it enters the bow ferrule. More pictures are here:
http://thevillagetinker.com/Misc%20stuff.htm

Don't pay any attention to the thumb ring. It's not original. The backing plates for the attachment loops are like B & S but the loops are round instead of the traditional rectangular 'rifle-sling' loops.

You know my vote - more so now at closer inspection

Alexander

J.c.

Not an Alex for sure. It looks Czech to me too.

Here is a couple of pictures of an Alex I used to own.

tubashaman wrote:Possible Czech copy of the Miraphone 186, slide wrap is very similar to the 186

Just a guess

James "who played a miraphone 186 for 6 years" G

You must be very young (and congratulations on being that)!

The Czechs never copied German rotary instruments but for maybe some newer details of the valve transmission. The Czechs (= Cerveny) developed the prototypes of all rotary tuba designs.

Anything Miraphone is post-WWII.

The water key spring is of a very old and definitely pre-WWII type.

The stays make me think Markneukirchen, but the overall impression of the valve spatulas and the rotor stops says pre-WWII Czech. The Markneukirchen type stays may point towards one of the German speaking families of makers represented on both sides of the border until the Germans were thrown out of Bohemia at the end of WWII because of the way the nazis had treated the Czechs.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

As I told the Tinker, there is a gentleman here in Cleveland with an Alexander "Double" F/CC tuba (4 valve comp) that is identical in every meaningful way to this instrument - right down to the waterkey. Its bell has no wreath, but it is engraved. The body ferules are identical, and the outside bow guards on his also go right into the ferules. I'm certain it's pre-war...

I've worked on several pre-war Alex horns as well, and they have many of the same hallmarks as well, including levers, etc.

Alexanders are not a wholly uniform company which only made one unchanging version of the 163, 164 and 155. There is considerable variation, especially if you go to before WWII. Then things get weird...

Sexy Tuba. I'd gladly have it in my arsenal...

J.c.

Has anybody ever seen an Alexander *anything* with a 19mm (.748 inch) bore?

I didn't think so.

B&S braces and Alex braces look VERY similar. It looks like a B&S stencil or a copy of such. That isn't an Alex.

TubaTinker,

Do you have a photo of the mouthpiece receiver?

Good (early!) morning everyone!

J.c.

J.c. Sherman wrote:TubaTinker,

Do you have a photo of the mouthpiece receiver?

Good (early!) morning everyone!

J.c.

Yep! ... two of 'em:





The more I think about this, the more I sway toward the Czech side. The backing plate REALLY smacks of B & S. That receiver is brass and is separate from the leadpipe. Many of those Bohemian tubas only had a small ring on the leadpipe and the receiver was actually a tapered secion of the leadpipe. The leadpipe brace looks exactly like those usually found on the B & S built stencils... aka Sonora, Gerhardt Schneider, Carl Wunderlich, etc. I have a local friend who owns an early Alexander. I'll have him drop by in order to make a closer comparison. Unless you can offer convincing evidence otherwise, I'll probably have to discount the notion of this being an Alex.... unless of course, it matches my friends horn.

That pic is the first one to shake my certainty from 99% down to 85%. That, and if the back bearing plates are atypical, you may be onto something... Everything else though...

I'm going to try to contact the gent with the F tuba to see If he can share pics of his receiver and the horn. This is very interesting to me as an Alex owner/lover

You're probably right; it's garbage - you better send it to me to get rid of it for you

J.c.S.

J.c. Sherman wrote: You're probably right; it's garbage - you better send it to me to get rid of it for you J.c.S.

Sequel.... Made a new 'discovery' today. I had a little time so I decide to strip the horn and knock it down to get at some dents. I'm glad I didn't try to remove the bow-guards first! The guards on this horn appear to stop at the ferrules. They don't! They were put on the horn BEFORE assembly to the ferrules and run all the way to the end of the branch!


I haven't seen this on any tuba I've taken apart. Then again... of course I haven't seen 'everything'!

That's another characteristic of the old a$$ Alex F in town...

I ran into this on a Pre-Boosey Hawkes & Son Eb recently as well. Darn near made a BAD mistake removing it - caught my error just in time!

J.c.

J.c. Sherman wrote:That's another characteristic of the old a$$ Alex F in town...

I ran into this on a Pre-Boosey Hawkes & Son Eb recently as well. Darn near made a BAD mistake removing it - caught my error just in time!

J.c.

Yeah... I came very close to pulling those guards off for the dentwork. I think this is going to be a very resonant horn. The brass had a nice temper to it... making the dentwork pretty easy.

OK. This horn is stripped, dedented, and back together. I played it tonight in a community band setting. The intonation characteristics of this horn very closely resemble the Carl Wunderlich (B & S stencil) I used to own. Anyway I have it listed on my 'for sale' page. I would garage my St. Pete for a while and play this horn but I have a slant-rotor Marzan on the way that I want to spend some time with.

DP wrote:....how's it play?? (objective, quantifiable terms please)

Plays good. How's that for quantifiable??!!

The guy to the right must wear too warm clothes since he needs all that piping and that huge tap to drain his back from moisture.

A bit more OT (on topic):

The guards continuing down inside the ferrules may save work, but they also contribute stiffness to the whole structure. Not a bad thing in Czech tubas, as they often are built of quite thin brass.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:..... The guards continuing down inside the ferrules may save work, but they also contribute stiffness to the whole structure. Not a bad thing in Czech tubas, as they often are built of quite thin brass. Klaus

That's a interesting observation and a point well taken, Klaus. I mentioned in one of the earlier posts that this tuba was very 'easy' to straighten out. There was very little temper to the brass and the dents rolled out nicely leaving behind material that did not seem to be overstressed. And yes... the brass is thin and quite resonant. Some of these old 'junkers' turn out to be rather nice horns.

Okay, time to splash some fuel on the fire

Here are some photos of the F 4-valve compensating Double tuba I spoke of earlier in this thread.

I didn't take a shot of the outer bow guards, but they do go under the ferule as on the disputed tuba. Note specifically the thumb ring flange, the similarity of the leadpipe brace, somewhat the receiver, the tops of the rotors, and a thousand other little things. Also, the bell reading "Alexander Mainz".

Couple notes - this was overhauled (extremely well done work!) at the King Factory decades ago when they still did that. So there's a reinforcing ferule on the main slide, and a replacement waterkey. The lacquer is King as well. And the current owner lowered the leadpipe, so that's why the lacquer is different in that area. The bore is larger than the curent model Alexs, and the bell shape is substantially different than the current model, and without a wreath. Finally it plays... well... okay. The upper Bb is grotesquely flat, and the low C is beyond difficult compared to the normal Alex.

Any thoughts?

J.c.S.

Interesting tuba this compensating Alexander, as it differs wildly from the current 5 valve Alexander compensator.

This one basically has the same airpath as the British piston compensators after the Blaikley system. This allows for a progressive bore between the first passages of the first 3 valves and then the compensating loop with its potential second passages of the 3 first valves.

The current Alex compensator has the shift valve before the 4 main valves, which implies that the wider bored comp loop is placed earlier than the ordinary valves in the airpath, when the shift valve is engaged. Odd!

Klaus

Actually, both versions of the Alex doubles have the same bore on the regular and compensating sides, so the bore profile is essentially identical whether a 5-valve version or a 4-valve comp. However, this one does differ significantly with a bigger bore overall, and it plays differently as well.

This is true for most compensting horns (French) as well. The Besson Blaikley (sp) system instruments (tubas) do have a graduated bore (as well do their copies), but the only (French) horn I know with a larger bore on the lower side are Paxman horns.

J.c.S.