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I have expressed my opinion on this several times on the forum, but I will again.

The number of universities with music departments continues to increase. The number of tuba players needed to perform in ensembles for those universities continues to increase. The number of outstanding tuba instructors at universities who need good players for their studios continues to increase. The number of graduates with tuba performance degrees continues to increase.

The demand for live orchestral music continues to decrease. The number of professional orchestras with even close to a decent wage paid for services continues to decrease. The need for live musicians in the recording studios continues to decrease.

These aren't value judgments...they are facts. Draw your own conclusions, and make your own niche if you desire it that much. Just don't misunderstand the situation.

tubashaman wrote:I saw this before, I believe the clip is in Canada.

Things are getting bigger for the tuba in America

Your comment is very vague and has no real contribution to this discussion IMO.

Care to try again?

The big thing which has changed here in the UK is in the reduction of military bands. At one time I believe there was around 200 in the British military. That has been shrinking and shrinking over the year and is now down to less than 20.

The good thing is that for high standard amateur bands the available gigs have therefore increased. The Hampshire Police Band in which I play get many gigs today which used to be done by professional military bands.

Scooby Tuba wrote:When I hear "gig," I assume "money" is involved. Have these once "professional" (as in someone got paid for the "gig" or a salary) engagements now turned to "freebees"? If so, many would say no "increase" has occurred.

No these have not turned in freebees - there is still a gig fee. By "amateur" band, I just mean that the musician's such as myself do not make a living from playing music.

Maybe a semi-pro band would be a better description?

Scooby Tuba wrote:where do you currently see us as tuba players? Where is music for us going?

Let's look at it from a numbers perspective:

There is a list of the top 1300 high schools in the US.http://www.newsweek.com/id/39380

Let's take an estimate of 3 tuba players per school. That should get close to the number of "decent" tuba players in the US or approximately 3900 decent high school age tuba players. I would put this number realistically close to double the number of players with some extent of collegiate-level academic pursuit, so there are about 2000 (40 per state) guys/gals with tubas trying to use that in their profession. From that number, about 75% are realistically looking at an education degree, so that leave you with around 500 looking for real jobs playing the tuba.

In regards to legitimate "I play tuba" jobs, those not including academic appointments (sorry tuba professors), I'm going to guess at around 50-75 really exist in the US. What I am referencing is the positions that pay well enough for someone to live in normal comfort without having to subsidize income from teaching, etc. The guesstimate above is really fairly liberal, when you look at the real number of full-time orchestra jobs, performance only military gigs, and other spots you could get a livable wage only playing tuba.

So, it would seem (and I think this is a generous number) that the chances are 1 out of 10 for a tuba performance major to land a tuba-only job. Because of this disparity, the academic level jobs must play some role in keeping these people in the industry, but I am still willing to estimate that academic positions only employ about 4/10 of the available pool. This leaves half of the tuba performance majors to find a job in education, accounting, instrument repair, pool-cleaning, etc.

When you compare these numbers to other collegiate level skills, specifically those not in the "arts" realm, the chances of landing a job are far higher. Some career paths are nearly a P=1 proposition, because of industry demands. Pure and Applied Mathematicians go forth into a situation like this, where the demand outnumbers supply. Hence a higher rate of pay for the same number of years in "training."

All in all, the outcome seems to be good in that there is a large body of musicians at the college level, many of which have achieved a high level of playing, but negative in the fact that real-world jobs continue to diminish as competition increases.

I was (un)lucky enough to be in a town that once supported a large number of guys who could play the tuba only for a living. Cost of living was cheap, jobs were plentiful, and everything seemed to be great. That was until the large employer started cutting back on musicians, the others followed, the orchestra went away, and it became a vacuum of playing jobs with a good number of tuba players left to fight for what was left. I know two of the guys who were younger at the time who made it out and landed "I play tuba" jobs for prestigious organizations, but those odds are slim in today's society.

Matthew,

That's a pretty reasonable look at the situation, using relatively rough guess numbers.

The only problem is, you list 50-75 living wage jobs playing the tuba that are not academic-related. Are you saying there are 50-75 new (or vacated) jobs each year? 50-75 positions that tuba players are auditioning for each year? I don't think so. Not even close.

Another problem with your analysis is the 500 or so players each year looking for a job don't just "go away" if they don't get one the first year out of school. The numbers continue to accumulate. 1 in 10 is very naive, and I think it's important to be more up-front about the chances of landing such a job to aspiring students. 1 in 100 may be closer, but is probably still too low.

That's an interesting point, James.

But I think if you took a survey of those 50-75 (estimated) tuba players earning a living from just playing, you might be surprised how many of them don't have an advanced degree.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:That's an interesting point, James.

But I think if you took a survey of those 50-75 (estimated) tuba players earning a living from just playing, you might be surprised how many of them don't have an advanced degree.

. . . or an advanced degree in something other than music!

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:The only problem is, you list 50-75 living wage jobs playing the tuba that are not academic-related. Are you saying there are 50-75 new (or vacated) jobs each year? 50-75 positions that tuba players are auditioning for each year? I don't think so. Not even close.

You are correct. I forgot to utilize the turnover of these positions, which is roughly every 30 years. That does bring the number down to where I thought it should have been (about the chances of playing professional football or baseball) in the order of 1/300.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:That's an interesting point, James.

But I think if you took a survey of those 50-75 (estimated) tuba players earning a living from just playing, you might be surprised how many of them don't have an advanced degree.

Most of the folks I know just stayed in school to mainly get more contacts, perfect their art, and wait for the "next big gig" to open up. It usually had very little to do with actually getting a degree.

I remember looking over the roster of Juilliard years back. A good number of players would not be eligible to teach at the average State U. because of a lack of any degree.

interesting discussion.

another angle that is not really discussed here, and I have zero ideas about numbers are folks who play the large brass only in non-orchestral settings. i.e., only doing jazz or banda music? I would assume there are some who make a living at it. I suppose it's the what sort of living, as related to bloke's insurance post above.

I think the prospects of working for someone else (ie an orchestra or professional band) are getting worse. At the same time, the door is wide open for those who wish to be entreprenurial: if you don't "find" an opportunity, make one for yourself.

How about brass quintets or other chamber groups? Specifically, how many more or less "full time" brass quintets are there (Canadian Brass, Boston Brass, etc.) and how many people make a considerable portion of their income in such groups?

Nick Pierce wrote:How about brass quintets or other chamber groups? Specifically, how many more or less "full time" brass quintets are there (Canadian Brass, Boston Brass, etc.) and how many people make a considerable portion of their income in such groups?

That was included in my guesstimate. I am thinking maybe 6-12 players who could live only on their quintet income in the U.S.