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GideonTubaWarrior wrote:I've played this a lot of times. Almost too many times. Both the right key and the wrong key - thanks string sections!!
So, what's up with mm 5-11???
I don't get why JPS did what he did. The man was a genius, but I still don't get what his deal was with those measures. Bass bone doesn't have the lick - those guys would probably make it a gliss anyway.
Any other marches out there have similar licks? I can;t think of any off the top of my head, but what do I know?

These "flip turns" are common place in circus band marches and settings. Although Sousa did not use them AS MUCH as the Barnum and Bailey types, they are common for the time period. Many times they are not written out, but are shown as grace notes.

http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/b ... script.pdf

Interesting to look at the original Sousa manuscript, isn't it? Notice that the "turns" aren't there, so at the very best they were an "afterthought" possibly only added when the parts were copied out.

Todd stole my thunder. I have an early recording (1906, I think) stored somewhere, and the turns aren't in it. But man, it's fast, to get the whole thing on one side!

Interesting that it appears to have a Db piccolo part. That further blows to hell the story about the Db being invented to play S&SF in an orchestra. Although the key does fit.

eupher61 wrote:Interesting that it appears to have a Db piccolo part. That further blows to hell the story about the Db being invented to play S&SF in an orchestra. Although the key does fit.

Marches of that era nearly always used Db piccolo...it was still popular as late as the 1950s (check your favorite vintage band instrument flyers). Someone who grew up playing the solo part in the band version on a Db piccolo would be right at home in the "down-a-half-step" orchestral version on a C piccolo. Unfortunately, the number of people that describes who are still playing today is zero.

The reverse simply doesn't work...you can't be fluent on the band solo on a C piccolo (which all piccolo players are) and simply pick up a Db piccolo and use the same fingerings for the orchestral version. You'd be a whole step too high.

If you were so inclined, writing the solo out down a whole step from the original band version (in Gb major!!!), grabbing a Db piccolo, and using the fingerings you know and love would work out fine in the orchestral version. I really don't see the advantage in that, though.

Todd S. "who thinks most flute/piccolo players find the solo easy in either key anyway" Malicoate

ben wrote:that's very cool to see the score. I never would have guessed that Sousa just wrote half notes for that section.

Thanks Todd!

good to know that I've been true to the original mss. for the past 10 years...

Very interesting, Todd! Thanks!


The euph part was heavily edited in those measures as well. As far as I can see, someone completely removed those two bars and gave the euphs the tuba part. Does anyone play those "bouncing" quarter notes now? As far as I can hear, they are gone.

Wonder who the culprit was?

I actually went to our library to find out some of this stuff. I really geeked out here, took the hit for the team, just for you guys.

Sousa finished writing out the band score for S&S on April 26, 1897. He even wrote the date on the last page of the score. S&S was premiered at the Academy Of Music in Philadelphia on May 14th of that year, with much fanfare. The copyright on the John Church Co. published edition was registered on June 5, 1897. Any changes made between the manuscript score and the initial published edition was made during those five weeks.

It is believed that Sousa pulled out S&S at a concert in Augusta, ME, on May 1, 1897. The local newspaper had a review of the concert, which included an several unannounced encores. One was a new march with no title. Hardly conclusive, but Sousa had no other new marches on tap, certainly none with a Philly premiere two weeks away. Whether or not Sousa gave S&S a dry run on the 1st of May, he still had two weeks to tinker with the chart before he premiered it.

Sousa never updated his manuscript score. Changes must have been written into the manuscript parts the band used before and during the Philadelphia premiere. Those manuscript parts are long gone, likely destroyed after being used by the John Church Co. to create the published edition.

Who added the sixteenths? Gotta be Sousa himself. Why? Your guess is as good as anyone's. We'll never know.

bloke wrote:I wonder (??) if things may have happened (just as happen on jazz/rock bands' recording sessions)...

lowly sousaphonist wrote:Excuse me sir; What if we try *this*?

I can hear it now...

LOWLY SOUSAPHONIST: "Excuse me sir; What if we try *this*?"

[SOUSAPHONE AUDIO]: "bum, ba-da bum, ba-da bum, ba-da bffuh. bum, ba-da bum, ba-da bffuh, ba-ffuh flubuh..."

SOUSA: "Sounds like ***. Baritones, double it up an octave."

UPPITY BARITONIST [TO LOWLY SOUSAPHONIST]: "Thanks a bunch. Moron."