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I'll assume you're talking about the opening to Act III.

There's no right answer. I play this on C, because that's what I have, but it's not so high as to be ridiculous. If you look at the score of the entire opera here, I think you'll see why many players would choose a contrabass tuba when performing Lohengrin. There's certainly no reason you couldn't perform it on a bass tuba, though.

One of the keys to this one (in an audition setting) is fitting into the horn/trombone sound even when playing alone. Too many players play the high octave just way too loud. You can let loose a bit more on the restatement in the lower octave. And, please, no vibrato...especially on the long high Ds...I hear this mistake a bunch.

Does anybody else "play along" with the horns on the first statement on up to high G? Even if you don't, you should sing along in your head with that part...it makes coming in on that D a bit easier.

IIRC, German-oriented players play the whole book on F. If they can do it, so can WE...we're " 'MERCUNS", James.

I ain't afraid

* Ok, I will contribute something to this. I played this last year with the NC Symphony on a Young Person's Concert. I showed up to the gig with my CC (Willson 3050). No problem. Also on this was some Lemony Snicket Orchestra Murder Mystery thing that had a very high, exposed, lyrical feature for the tuba. Both rehearsals were on one day, so I played it all on CC tuba, but I secretly wished I had an F with me. The next day I brought the F and played the two concerts with BOTH tubas. I did the first half of Lohengrin on the F and the second with the low stuff on CC. Mostly out of curiosity, but I ended up with a preference of the F tuba on the upper stuff, as it had a better blend with the trombones in that register than my CC tuba did. On the Snicket solo, I used F tuba, but played the rest of the tune on CC.

That is just what I did. The point is, you gotta do what you are comfortable with as a musician. Very few people tell me what to do, and which tuba to use. It's my call, and my judgment. Make the best one, get called back, I guess. The older I get the easier I want to make it.

Something that stikes me full of awe is watching (hearing) Al Baer play the prelude on his CC tuba, AND include the extra notes not written taking it up to g. The way he does it...amazing.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/nyphil/index.html" target="_blank

I realize this was posted on the forum shortly after it was released by PBS. However, Al's performance in that piece (and the entire concert) is certainly something to strive for.

I believe that you should play the Prelude to Act III on an F tuba IF

1) the tormbones are using German design trombones (Yamaha makes a dandy copy) and
2) the trumpets are playing rotary Bb trumpets OR
3) the orchestra is not too large OR
4) your job is on the line and you are worried about it

Range should simply not be a consideration. You can either play the range or not, the F tuba may lend a bit of security but then, that's a crutch, isn't it?

American orchestras, and American tubists, have played this part on CC for decades. You will lend a non-traditional sound to your orchestra if you play an F tuba. American orchestra strive and achieve a big, robust, almost visceral sound that the Europeans can't.

Play the CC and be a robust sounding tuba player.

I would without hesitation play Lohengrin on my Eb. Was this not originally written for ophicleide? To my ears a CC would just be too heavy for this early Wagner.

For Meistersinger, another thing - I may well use my Neptune.

Alex C wrote: Range should simply not be a consideration. You can either play the range or not, the F tuba may lend a bit of security but then, that's a crutch, isn't it?

This should be said over and over. You choose Bass or Contrabass for the quality of sound that is required by the music. The attitude that Bass Tubas are for high register parts and Contrabass Tubas are for low register parts is simplistic.

For the record I play the Lohengrin 3rd Act Prelude on CC.

Neptune wrote:Was this not originally written for ophicleide?

Roger Bobo says so (see here). I certainly wouldn't disagree, and trust his research. He also supports my "playing along" to the high G in the first statement...yay!!!

Neptune wrote:To my ears a CC would just be too heavy for this early Wagner.

You obviously haven't heard me play this excerpt on a C...it can be done with a light tone.

I'm not saying it's not a good choice to play the piece on a bass tuba, or even that it's not more "correct." But we've had this discussion on the forum dozens of times. Unless you're trying to perform an authentic "period" version of a piece (complete with pea-shooter trombones and gut strings), use the modern tools available and don't worry so much about the instrument a composer knew in 1850. Just use the sensitivity of your ears to do what's right. The other folks in the orchestra don't seem to mind the larger, more resonant instruments they use...why do we put so much thought into this issue as tuba performers?

EDIT...Again, James, thanks for a thought-provoking thread. I honestly appreciate the effort you have put into your recent posts. Well done!

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:

Neptune wrote:Was this not originally written for ophicleide?

Roger Bobo says so (see here). I certainly wouldn't disagree, and trust his research. He also supports my "playing along" to the high G in the first statement...yay!!!

Thanks for the link - very interesting. I may try up to the high G myself when I get to play

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:I'm not saying it's not a good choice to play the piece on a bass tuba, or even that it's not more "correct." But we've had this discussion on the forum dozens of times. Unless you're trying to perform an authentic "period" version of a piece (complete with pea-shooter trombones and gut strings), use the modern tools available and don't worry so much about the instrument a composer knew in 1850.

I would agree with you. Play what sounds best (which is usually a larger tuba).

Jonathan "who played Bruckner 4 on his BAT earlier this year and loved it like that"

This piece is NOT a tuba solo showpiece, or anything like that. If you feel like playing one or the other (bass tuba or contrabass), congrats! Find what works for you, or switch, if need be.

...that being said, it was probably written with an F tuba in mind....

Kodiak would be my guess as to what would work best for that piece, but I haven't played one , yet...

I play it on CC, currently.

CJH

bloke wrote:James,

bttmbow is, likely, the highest-paid tuba player in the world who would, possibly more often than anyone else - or at least for more listeners than anyone else, play the piece (along with the entire opera) which you have brought to light. If I were you, I would give his post 99 points of weight and all other posts in this thread .001 points of weight.


CJH

[/quote]

Gee, thanks a lot

Since my teacher was famous for having played this one once from memory, from the wings, semi-nude and wrapped in the curtain, I'll pass on what he told me. The tuba part there shouldn't dominate at all -- as already pointed out by bttmbow. Go ahead and play the missing section for the sake of the texture. If anything it's a bit silly and risky to sit there on your thumbs waiting for the high d. But only if you can blend - the whole point is for the section to be relatively seamless. The next entrance, in the lower octave, is when your presence should be palpable - gutsy but still not predominant - and for Pete's sake maintain ensemble tempo. As to what horn, I've always played it on CC without any complaint - or comment, for that matter.

I always like to add to these discussions with the point that Bass tuba is and should be a different instrument from Contrabass - as different as Bass and Tenor.

With that out of the way, I have to play this in audition shortly. If I hadn't been sent the part by the orchestra, I'd play the missing portion, given the preponderance of evidence that this was originally an ophicleide part. But I'd use my F - no question, probably with my wooden mouthpiece (my "ophicleide" mouthpiece). As things stand, I'll play it stock with my F as written.

Finally, in context, it can be played very beautifully on CC. Range is not a consideration on this - or shouldn't be.

In the end, I would vote Bass. I wouldn't even show up with a bigger horn, unless it was a very large orchestra, in which case I'd have my Eb.

J.c.S.

I have to apologize for being an awful typist, and being impatient...

That being said, I DO play it on CC, but in the Act III Prelude, I use F for the beginning, then I switch back to the CC after the higher part is over (though I have played that section on the F, and also have played the whole thing on CC...blah, blah, blah...).

I did not mean to let y'all think I use CC for THAT part!!!

Sorrys...
CJH

As the plot thickens....

jeopardymaster wrote:
Since my teacher was famous for having played this one once from memory, from the wings, semi-nude and wrapped in the curtain, I'll pass on what he told me.

What? No names need to be said...but damn.

Riiiiiight..................

Chris wrote:

jeopardymaster wrote:
Since my teacher was famous for having played this one once from memory, from the wings, semi-nude and wrapped in the curtain, I'll pass on what he told me.

What? No names need to be said...but damn.

Unless I miss my guess, I've read this story before, and if I didn't miss my guess you had a very, very impressive teacher. We would be referring to the story recalled in the ITEA archives right?

Unless I miss my guess, I've read this story before, and if I didn't miss my guess you had a very, very impressive teacher. We would be referring to the story recalled in the ITEA archives right?

Mr. Green was definitely one for the ages. And yes, I believe that is in the ITEA archives.