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You think in ergonomic parameters which is a very valid approach, as we shall live with our tubas without creating motor problems for ourselves.

However the slant Marzan rotor tuba rather is a sample of ergonomics adapted to fit an acoustic concept. Another poster noted that the leadpipe is unusually short for a rotor tuba, which is a true observation.

Common wisdom has it that rotor tubas shall have a larger bore than piston tubas because the rotor block most often sits later in the conical expansion of the bore than on piston tubas. As the said poster noted, the Marzan has the rotor block sitting very early in the bore expansion. The effect is that the Marzan has a comparatively larger bore than for an example a Cerveny style rotor contrabass tuba where the leadpipe often has an upward “detour” along the top bow before the leadpipe enters the valve block.

That said the Marzan looks like having an ergonomic set-up allowing for great flexibility of the angle at which the tuba is held during playing. I have said that most designs of rotary tubas can be traced back to Cerveny’s ideas. This slant rotor Marzan represents some of the most original in designs of rotary tubas.

The degree of slant (or of no slant) should be related to how high the valve block is placed compared to the mouthpiece. With normal players’ size (a non-existent entity) there should be as little lateral wrist bending as possible. Some models prove themselves out of reach for smaller players, and some models are considered uncomfortable by larger players.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

This is my first experience with a slant-rotor horn. My main axes up 'til now have been a King 2341 (nearly vertical piston valveset), a B & M Marzan (with pistons angled about half-way between between the King and the Marzan slant-rotor), a St. Pete 202N (rotary) and the new Marzan slant-rotor that I just got which obviously has the rotors layed over at about 45 degrees. When I play the King, I hold the horn just about vertical... same as I do with the St. Pete 202N. When I play the Marzan piston horn, I lay the horn over a bit to my left. I haven't had my arms around the slant-rotor very much yet, but I would imagine that I will lay the horn over a little further to my left than the piston Marzan. For example.... I have pictures on my web page of fellows with their slant-rotor horns in playing positions and they look very relaxed and demonstrate a natural-looking wrist angle.

http://thevillagetinker.com/Marzan%20Horns.htm

At the other end of the spectrum... I know guys who just love top-action tubas! .. and wouldn't play anything else.

The tuba has possibly more variations in its shape from make to make and model to model than any other wind instrument. I have seen a vast array of differing valvesets and configurations. With an instrument as large and cumbersome as a tuba, and the variations in human anatomy, what feels like second nature to one person will be completely unworkable for another. I have modified valve linkage for people with unusually small hands, moved leadpipes for unusually tall- or short people, and have concluded that there is no one-size-fits-all tuba. The closest thing to such, in my opinion, would either be the old King 2341 or the Mirafone 186.

With regard to the layout of the rotors or pistons, I do prefer valves that are ergonomically placed for greater efficiency and comfort. There are some very excellent examples of well-thought-out valvesets on the market, but many players are conservative and wary of going with a non-traditional design. I really like the old Reynolds recording bass valvesets, which were angled very nicely and have very well-made valves. The Kanstul tubas have ergonomically designed valvesets, with a radial arrangement for the 5/4 tuba valves and a bi-angular set-up for their new 3/4 models, at very nearly the angle of the old Marzan valves. If one looks long enough, one will likely find an instrument they can be comfortable with.

bloke wrote: In fact, (at least for me) the thing really isn't comfortable without using a tuning bit in the receiver.

Isn't the benefit of using a tuning bit a matter about how far the leadpipe has been drawn around the bell stack? You apparently wanted to have the body turned a bit closer to your torso.

Klaus

Even though relatively tall (6'3"), in order to use the "tune ANY note" feature comfortably, I have my horn slightly at an angle in my lap (just like the smilie => ). This also makes the mouthpipe very reachable.

For myself, the ergonomics are outstanding!

windshieldbug wrote:Even though relatively tall (6'3"), in order to use the "tune ANY note" feature comfortably, I have my horn slightly at an angle in my lap (just like the smilie => ). This also makes the mouthpipe very reachable.

For myself, the ergonomics are outstanding!

Well.... I've spent almost a week with the Marzan slant-rotor and I can say that I am really starting to enjoy the physics of holding and playing the horn. It's a bit of a departure to 'sitting up straight' and holding a typical European rotary tuba, but the Marzan is right 'in there' with the ergonomics of other front-action pistons horns I've played. It does take a little 'play-time' to become totally acclimated.... but I think we are going to get along very well.

In response to the OP's question, I use a Tuba Tamer (for several ergonomic reasons) with my Yamaha rotary horn, in fact for all my "concert"-type tubas. I have the horn vertically straight up and *not* angled to my left as most folks usually do. This allows my hand/wrist to stay more or less straight and *not* bent at a 45 degree or so angle as it would be in the more traditional playing position. Like Lee said, you just have to find the right horn and maybe the right accessories (stands, chairs, rests, etc.) or horn mods to dial in the ergonomic sweet spot for your body and playing style.

I will add that I hacksawed the rubber-coated "V" on my Tuba Tamer that holds the bottom bow to accommodate downward-facing tuning slides.

Eric

Anyone out there enjoy the valve positioning on their Yamaha 822? I tried one around 10 years ago, and couldn't stand it. Played just fine, but it tied my hand in knots. Never looked back either.

the elephant wrote:...I see the "slant rotor" thing as a great idea that never got off the ground. I prefer rotors in most cases. I prefer the tighter bores of front piston horns with very short leadpipes. The Marzan combines these two features, making for an interesting design which I one day hope to get to try out. I am betting that these are very nice tubas, again, that were just a bit too "weird looking" for most players to have purchased....Egronomics are important.

Miraphone, as most of you probably know or have forgotten, makes a slant rotor model with a short leadpipe, but without a "tune any note" feature, I think, the BBb 289: http://miraphone.de/produkte_bild.asp?B ... A07000.jpg
Dillons has them on their site. It's never been a big seller, but I think a few TubeNetters have these and like them. Man, does that tuning slide look short, hope it's in A=440.

Considering I now tote around a TubaTamer, a tote bag, a collapsible stand and sometimes my own chair in addition to my horn, I would be fine with a weird looking tuba - I think people are relieved when I finally sit down and play, regardless of what comes out of the bell . I may need a roadie at some point; in fact I make my son schlep some stuff whenever he goes with me to a concert.

Eric "who has never seen a 289, but who has played its cousin, the piston CC 190, which has a traditional layout of the valves" L.

My York Master has slanted valves, like the York on which it was loosely based. I found that the particular combination of leadpipe position and my body shape resulted in my pinky waving in mid-air instead of resting on the valve. The valve-button extender kept me from having to reach for the edge of the button.

I'm 6 feet tall, and have large hands (I can palm a basketball). My arms are long, too (36" sleeve). I find that my 621 F tuba lays under the fingers just fine. Go figure.

My only beef with my Holton is that the thumb ring is poorly positioned. Don't ask me why I didn't solve that problem when Bloke had the tuba for work.

So, on balance, I can't say that the slant arrangement is my favorite. But it depends on how high the valves are on the instrument. What affects the angle of the valves, it seems to me, is the angle of the line drawn through the elbow and the center of the valves. The valves should cross that line such that the fourth valve is about an inch closer to the elbow than the first valve. Valves that are low on the instrument can be more vertically arranged than valves that are higher on the instrument.

As you can see from the picture below, the low position of the YM valves is the reason for the pinky finger falling off the valve. The Marzans (which were made in the same factory) uses a higher position, as I recall.



Rick "thinking elbow height is the critical body dimension" Denney

Sequel...

I've had a few weeks to adjust to my Marzan 'slant-rotor' tuba and have found that it's an easier transition from the King or Marzan piston horns than from the standard vertically-mounted rotary horns. My 'pinky' seems to have a little more work to do but overall I have found that the Marzan is very comfortable to play for extended periods of time. I like it, bug!