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tubashaman wrote:Okay, so on a recent orchestration test, 9 of the 10 members of the class on a transcription exercise (putting a viola part from bass clef sounding to written in alto clef), there were a strain of quarter notes that did not go above the 3rd line.

What does Gardner Read say?

I maintain the stem direction in a line if it just kisses the third line, because it looks better and is easier to read.

Rick "who actually has to read what he notates" Denney

I would think that if all the notes were below 3rd line then the one 3rd line note should have an up stem.

Of course, it is really a moot point and, as we all know, we must jump through the hoops and give teachers what they want.

The 3rd line stem can go up or down......but when to make it up or down can be arguable I guess...

Don't worry about it.

bloke wrote:Even more important than *rules* is *clarity*.

I might even go farther than the center line, in specific cases, for clarity for the person reading the part.

This would be ESPECIALLY useful for vocalists, since they're reading the notes and lyrics.

The stem direction depends on the note precending and following it. If the prededing notes are below the third line and the notes following it are above the third line, then the stem points down. If the precending notes are above the third line and the notes following are below the third line, then the stem points up. If the highest note is on the third line, the stem is up. If the lowest note is on the third line, the stem points down.

At least that is what our strict armenian theory teacher said. He also expected our written assignments and compositions to look as good or better than printed manuscript. So much so that we each bought basic drafting kits just to make sure things were right. This was before use of computers for such things were common, though. There is something to be said for that type of discipline, especially today. And yes, we walked uphill both ways to school, in 10" of snow . . .

Any prof who would give middle line stem direction equal weight to other factors is nuts.

So, James, your OP wasn't completely clear to me...the prof said the stem in this case should go....which way?

IMO, this is an instance where they should be UP. Others have said it well.

what he says, then, flies in the face of several hundred years of tradition. I know there are urtexts available on line, check some of them out and show him. Show him UP, even...he's an idiot! (IMO, of course)

Without resorting to name-calling of the professor in question, I will ask a simple question.

Why would choice of stem direction (outside of silly liberties) even be graded in an upper-level undergraduate theory class? Absolutely ridiculous. I don't care if he's never taught the class or not, that's really over-the-top. Anyone teaching an upper-level undergraduate theory class should know down only on the middle line is not a rule. I'd love to hear his thoughts about enharmonic respelling.

James, I would speak to your professor (then the department head, if necessary) about this and refrain from further complaining about it on the internet. I would approach it from a perspective of someone trying to learn and further their educational career...those points you lost for using a down-stem on middle C in the alto clef could be important to your overall grade later.

Unless, of course, you enjoy being bullied by your professors, that is.

bloke wrote:

pierso20 wrote:

bloke wrote:Even more important than *rules* is *clarity*.

I might even go farther than the center line, in specific cases, for clarity for the person reading the part.

This would be ESPECIALLY useful for vocalists, since they're reading the notes and lyrics.

Vocalists don't read anything *but* lyrics. The vast majority of them are incapable of reading either pitches *or* rhythms (and are taught these things by rote)...so - in their regard - the point is moot.

ouch........while I enjoy your humor , I don't think that is completely true...at least not at the collegiate or professional level....*cough*.....at least where I am........maybe..? hahaha

touche!

bloke wrote:

pierso20 wrote:

bloke wrote:Even more important than *rules* is *clarity*.

I might even go farther than the center line, in specific cases, for clarity for the person reading the part.

This would be ESPECIALLY useful for vocalists, since they're reading the notes and lyrics.

Vocalists don't read anything *but* lyrics. The vast majority of them are incapable of reading either pitches *or* rhythms (and are taught these things by rote)...so - in their regard - the point is moot.

I guess I would agree if we're going to consider the vast majority being people in church or at public events where a prompter is giving the words, right?..

tubashaman wrote:Not naming any names.....its only respectful, not complaining, I wanted to see what the TNFJ said about the overall direction of stems..

Fair enough, James. I shouldn't have used the word "complaining" about your post. I hope you are aware now that there is not a "rule" about the stem direction of a note on the middle line...not even "usually down" (with the exception, it would seem, of written work in this professor's class). I didn't respond to your poll because I believe both answers are incorrect. Context and clarity are the rules.

I would still have a respectful word with the professor about the points, though...better to address the issue now that if you get to the end of the semester with a 89.7% average (not saying you will...just in case).

Wouldn't it depend on the notes before or after the note on the third line? ...and the grouping of these notes? If you had a group of 1/8 or 1/16 notes beamed together, you sure wouldn't want to change stem direction in that grouping just because a note or notes fell on the third line.

See attached of the beginning of Albinoni's Adagio as engraved by Finale:

Rick, I would argue that the third and sixth measures of your example look strange because of the down stems on the Bb quarter and half notes. It's true that Finale "defaults" to a down stem on such notes, but a quick "L" keystroke flips the stem direction in speedy note entry. The tie direction gets nicely changed as well.

But, I suppose, that would be a -1 for each measure in James' class.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Rick, I would argue that the third and sixth measures of your example look strange because of the down stems on the Bb quarter and half notes. It's true that Finale "defaults" to a down stem on such notes, but a quick "L" keystroke flips the stem direction in speedy note entry. The tie direction gets nicely changed as well.

But, I suppose, that would be a -1 for each measure in James' class.

Yes, I agree. Those 2 meas (Bb note) look weird... especially tied... and I would normally switch stem direction of those notes before printing (if I remembered that is ). But my point was shouldn't stem direction depend on the notes before/after and their grouping? Makes for easier reading I would think.

Corrected stem direction of Bb's in new attachment below.

tubashaman wrote:Actually Todd, it was minus 2 per stem....giving me a 94 on that test....though I got everything else right

Ridiculous!

It's interesting that Finale (which I don't use) defaults to stem down, and the prof in question said "down only".

I think the guy has used nothing but Finale, seen that default, and made the assumption that that's reality.

I stand by my earlier opinion.

jonesbrass wrote:And yes, we walked uphill both ways to school, in 10" of snow . . .

What an amazing coincidence! So did I. What is truly amazing is that I did this in South Central Texas.

snorlax wrote:

Rick F wrote:Wouldn't it depend on the notes before or after the note on the third line? ...and the grouping of these notes? If you had a group of 1/8 or 1/16 notes beamed together, you sure wouldn't want to change stem direction in that grouping just because a note or notes fell on the third line.

See attached of the beginning of Albinoni's Adagio as engraved by Finale:

Kindly also observe that there are too many beats in mm 3, 5, and 6. Since I do not know the piece I will not hazard a guess as to what the right rhythms are. Either the dot must disappear from the dotted eighths OR the small notes should be 32nds.

Jim "you all get hung up on stem directions and fail to observe a problem 500 times worse" Williams

And not to mention, the slurs are supposed to be slurred THROUGH the ties....

Wow.....look how we as musicians have TORN apart a SHORT little example..

Oops... Piling on? Nah, just TNFJ normalcy.

Actually, I just started entering the notes of this piece into Finale just last week in preparation to transpose it for tuba/euph quartet (EEET) and only got so far. I'm surprised Finale let me put too many beats in those measures! Never would before. I rechecked my original source and those 1/16 are supposed to be 1/32's. Sorry.

I'm sure most of you have heard Thomaso Albinoni's Adagio. It's a gorgeous work... one of my favorites (next to Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings).

See the link below to see the music and listen to the sound file. Demondrae Thurman performed this with pipe organ accomp at SRTEC in Sarasota, FL a few months ago. Absolutely fabulous performance.

http://www.8notes.com/scores/7374.asp?v ... &ftype=gif

tubashaman wrote:As I said, several people in the class got it wrong and we complained in class, consulted other teachers.

THE point is we know now, and we actually kind of laugh at the overthetopness....

But honestly, I could have taken opera history or something else and learned something, EVERYTHING we have been taught has been a direct quote from the adler book....

Not naming any names.....its only respectful, not complaining, I wanted to see what the TNFJ said about the overall direction of stems..

what does *adler* say about stems?

I have done a bazillion notation projects in the last 10+ years. The projects have ranged from a student to the Pope (really!). The third line in Treble, Bass, Alto, etc. is neutral. It is much more common to see stem down, but stem up is acceptable as well.

Go here for more notation info:

http://www.npcimaging.com/

One of the gold standards:

http://www.npcimaging.com/books/TedRoss.htm

Below is a sample with some more options for the example posted by Rick F. I prefer the first option, but all are acceptable and come out to the exact same rhythm etc. Please note I used the B to dictate the direction of the 32nd notes on the first beat. Basically for clarity purposes.