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186.

Oh, yeah, I would say that, wouldn't I! (sorry!)

Anyway, about anything with rotors to look the part and a big enough bell throat (that leaves out the Lidl) to sufficiently "oomph" will be just fine.

I'd hold off on both of those, and watch ebay for a little while longer. A lot of really good stuff shows up there these days, and with the economy as it is, prices are depressed.

All three of the horns you are looking at are made out of relatively thin metal and will attract dents. Lots of dents.

So, if this is a sacrificial horn and you really expect rough environments then go cheap.

That said, I play a 25+ year old Sanders/Amati in a German band. This is the 13th year I've played it in that band. It's thin and delicate. It has its share of dents but it doesn't look as bad as most tubas of that vintage. I take care of it and watch out for it.

A good coffin case goes a long way towards protecting the horn when it's on the equipment truck. If it's in my own vehicle then it lives in a Reunion Blues leather gig bag. The tuba goes into a K&S stand when I put it down, but that's mostly because of the bell mounted mike. What bell damage the horn has happened before I started using the K&S stand. Standing the tuba up on its bell is just asking for trouble.

Take a good look at the rotor linkages on those 3 horns. The heavier duty, the better. Tone differences aside, I'd go for the best linkages over almost any other consideration. You won't be counting rests in a German band. You will be playing constantly and it won't be whole notes. Pay particular attention to the ball joints. They're going to get a workout.

Good luck with your selection and enjoy.

There is an Amati on eBay for a grand right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-big-used-Bb-Tu ... dZViewItem" target="_blank

I played one like this off and on for 5 years with no complaints. It played just like my 184 only bigger.

Baltimore Brass has a used Miraphone 186 w/bag for $2,100. Sounds like a steal to me. And it's even a German tuba for a German band.

BigDale wrote:Hello,

I am looking for a larger horn for my German band. I really do not want to take my symphony CC out for the abuse that the outdoor and beerhall gigs will put upon it. Which inexpensive horn do you suggest?

Baltimore Brass has a used Piggy @ $2400 with bag. Unless you really need/want a BBb, the Pig would be easy to handle, make a big noise in the beerhall and you wouldn't need to confuse your CC vs. BBb fingerings.

Jeff "A Thought" Benedict

I have a one-owner Alex BBb 164, four rotary valves with the original clock springs, bought directly from the factory in 1958. It has a dent in the outer bow, but is otherwise in very good shape. It is a tank. It comes with a wooden "coffin" case that came from Alexander with the horn. It is in Chicago. I don't have a price in mind and would need to do a little looking around. If you are interested, leave me a message at 773 929-7008.

Dale, IMO....

to give the best to the German band, as you obviously want to, you need to use the best equipment, too. I use my B&S F for all my German stuff (well, everything except jazz, and even then sometimes.) For one thing, the F in a bag fits in the van which is our usual travel vehicle, better than my Weril in a hard case.

But, the sound. I've used a wide range of horns --186 CC and BBb, MW whatever 4/4 BBb, Piggy CC, King Monster Eb, Conn Jumbo BBb, Besson F, F helicon (a LOT of fun to play, although the sound just doesn't cut it), BBb sousaphone, Alex 163 CC, MW 11, and yes an Alex Kaiser BBb-- for playing German. The Alex BBb was far and away the best, but 1) it was just too big to haul around easily at the time, or now even, and 2) it wasn't mine.

My B&S just rocks, in my own opinion and that of others in the bands. http://www.festhausmusikanten.com the quality of the recordings isn't the best, but you can get some idea, I think.

Don't cheat yourself by using lesser quality equipment! If you have to haul a hard case, so be it. I have the F de-dented every few years, so far no problems with stressed metal. I never stand the horn on the bell unless I'm sitting there anyway, so that's not an issue.

A consumable instrument will cause consuming problems in the long run!

The 'Weltklang' BBb at Dillon Music might be
what you have in mind.

Indeed. A good horn for the gig.

Toad Away wrote:The 'Weltklang' BBb at Dillon Music might be
what you have in mind.

I played that tuba during a quick visit to Dillon yesterday (I had a meeting at the NJ Turnpike control center and it's less than a mile away). It's a great horn, like all the old tall-bell B&S-made rotary Bb tubas. It's about as close as you'll get to an Alex that actually plays in tune and is cheap. That tuba should NOT be sitting there. Someone should have bought it by now.

Rick "thinking that was the Bb sleeper in the Dillon inventory" Denney

or maybe this other B&S : viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30046 for a grand (!) less.

Eric "who came very close to buying one of these horns, but felt they might come up a little short for his style of large ensemble playing, but who would consider one in a medium/small ensemble" L.

rough gigs? sheesh, Dale, get over it. ANY gig can be a rough gig. Again, why set yourself up for disappointment or less-than-great performance with a less-than-great instrument?

The worst dent I ever put into a horn was in a practice room. A guy who was subbing in a community orchestra for me, a few weeks ago, tripped going offstage, and bent the leadpipe of his...well, I'm not sure what it is, but it's a 4/4 CC, silver plated, great condition except for this massively dented leadpipe and bell.

I can understand not wanting to take your 'orchestra' horn, but don't take a clunker either. The Piggy is your best deal, esp if the price dropped. (although, a BBb is technically not in the "Piggy" catagory, but that's a technicality.)

Hey! The price just lowered on the BBb in the "For Sale" section -- go for it!

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=30046" target="_blank

OK, now we're down to real reasons.

I wash my F every week, for the exact reasons you mention.

Warning: This is going to sound like I'm a big ol' a-hle. That could well be the case.


But, learning a piece on a specific key horn, to me, means you don't really know it, you learned it by rote and know which buttons to push where. 600 tunes isn't all that many, IMO, and if you can play them on BBb you can play them on CC, IF you know the tune and not just fingerings, as long as you're fluent on both. I've played jazz on every key tuba, aside from the French C, sometimes changing from one gig to the next on the same day. If I can't play a tune well, it's my fault for not having the changes down cold.

See...told you I'm an a-hole...

eupher61 wrote:But, learning a piece on a specific key horn, to me, means you don't really know it, you learned it by rote and know which buttons to push where.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I was chatting with Chuck Daellenbach some years ago after a clinic, and the topic of F or C tuba for quintet came up. There are many arguments he might have brought to bear to defend his use of C, but the one he chose to use in that conversation was "I've already got all those tunes memorized on C, and don't really want to learn all new fingerings."

So, you might not be an a-hole so much as having an innate ability that not all tuba players share, even those at the highest end of the biz.

Rick "not feeling guilty for being unable to play memorized tunes in any key" Denney

I might consider one of the beater fiberglass BBbs on the auction site if the horn had to endure mistreatment during transport and at the performance location. So what if you need a little duct tape, fiberglass resin, or bondo?

I recently took a BBb York (brass) sousa I have to an outside event. Ifound that the BBb York sousa (which has a small bore) is considerably easier to play than my orchestral CC, although I had not played BBb since I left high school in 1965.

BigDale wrote:
Hot, sweaty, peel the laquer off, drinking "bier" the whole time we play--NOT the place for my precious Piggy!

Put a leather guard on the horn where you sweat. End of that problem. Swallow the beer before you start playing. End of that problem.

13 years of that kind of playing and drinking haven't managed to destroy my tuba. Yes, it has some dents. I'm not convinced that has anything to do with the playing environments. The worst dent on my horn happened the first day I owned it, took it out of the case and promptly knocked it against our piano. Your horn can get stepped on or knocked over wherever you are.

Unless you're playing behind chicken wire you just aren't in places all that rough.

Just buy whatever you like and can afford. Find a Miraphone 186 or clone and care of it. You'll be fine.

FWIW I just had a couple of dents removed from my TE 1150S euphonium. I had the euph in one hand and other stuff in the other hand and tripped over a curbing on the way to putting the horn back in its case. Sh*t happens wherever you are.