TubeNet

Why it is that the CC tubas are so much better sounding than the Bb's. The CC is just so much more mellow and smooth compared to the Bb horns. Is it because of the shorter tubes?

I am thinking of switching to CC but not sure how long the learning curve will take. Also, I play a lot of Dixie etc that is written in flat keys. Not sure it will be worth the hassle to switch, but I love that tone!!!

What horns have you been hearing?

I believe the length of tubing is very low on the list of factors affecting sound. There are other, much more sound-influencing elements like the mouthpipe taper, the bore's size, the bore's shape, the bell size, the bell flare[, if applicable, "The Dent"] and so on and so on.

I think it may be just the hears that you have been hearing. I've heard and played very mellow Bbs and very "loud" C tubas. If you like the sound of what you hear, look for that specific model of tuba or one similar to it.

I, oddly enough, had very little trouble learning C fingerings. A big thing that helped me was playing simple etudes that I already had in my ear from playing them on the Bb on the C tuba. Familiar tunes are the way to go and, when you are more proficient, sight-reading tunes.

I hope that helps!

Davidrn1 wrote:Why it is that the CC tubas are so much better sounding than the Bb's. The CC is just so much more mellow and smooth compared to the Bb horns. Is it because of the shorter tubes?

Wouldn’t a more likely explanation rather be found in the demographic differences between CC tubists versus BBb tubists?

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre (playing mostly BBb and Eb, but also CC and F)

schlepporello wrote:Agreed, I can sound just as crappy on a CC tuba as I can a BBb.

Personally, I've always prefered the tone and sound of a BBb over a CC.
Especially if the BBb is a Miraphone 186.

But isn’t your BBb a 188?

K

I think it's the same difference as C and Bb trumpets.

The over-all bore profile makes the sound of the horn. Therefor, in both types, you can have killer horns and also-rans. For some reason, for American orchestral sound, there seem to be more CC examples of the former.

Putting aside the question about tone (IMO, it's not nearly as noticeable as on trumpets, and is more a factor of the player), don't let the fingerings scare you.

It'll take a few weeks to get really comfortable, but that's why you have a huge CD library, right?? Play along with recordings, heck, this is an excuse to buy some more CDs!. I used a Piggy CC for years, until I sold it and used almost nothing but F for most of the last 18 years. (a souzie was in there, and an Eb, now another BBb in some applications)
Eli Newberger has done fine on CC. Dave Gannett does fine on whatever!

The notion that better players tend to gravitate to CC tubas (for whatever reason) might have something to do with the perceived 'magic'.

I've had CC tubas but apparently am not good enough to play them.
I'll stick with my Eb and BBb horns. (Mostly BBb these days).

What is that saying in the addvertising business? Reality is 90% perception? If you are told from birth that it takes a CC to be successful, it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy, or across the pond, BBb.

1) Better players tend to gravitate to CC tubas in the US.

2) Call me crazy, but I think the better BBb tubas stay in Germany, and they ship us the rest. If we're comparing identical models, I wouldn't be surprised.

3) "Easier Fingerings" are a misnomer in any direction. You'll need to play in all keys, so all keys of tuba should be equally facile, with same paterns on both instruments.

4) For American style instruments, the resistance to the player seems a little lower on the CC instruments (Holton Harvey Philips Models, "Conn" 5xJ vs. King 2341, etc.)

5) The above information is all garbage. That said with the possible exception of my Alex 163 CC, I'll take the sound of a BBb over an equivalent CC any day. YMMV.

J.c.S.

It is only my perception, but having played a number of CC and BBb over the years, at least to me CC seem generally easier to handle and usually have a more sonorous voice. Not that I don't like BBb's - particularly the big ones (like my Kaiser), as they tend to have an incomparable bottom register.

But what I have never understood, is why is the USA you start players on BBb - the biggest and most difficult to handle? Starting on Eb as we do in the UK, or F as they do in Germany makes far more sense

J.c. Sherman wrote:Call me crazy, but I think the better BBb tubas stay in Germany

That is not crazy - I am sure it is right! The very best BBb are no doubt selected by European professionals (not just Germans) 'at the factory' before they are shipped overseas.

Neptune wrote: But what I have never understood, is why is the USA you start players on BBb - the biggest and most difficult to handle? Starting on Eb as we do in the UK, or F as they do in Germany makes far more sense

One word - marching band.

Oh. Two words.

And it's a bloody shame.

Meanwhile, I think Bloke may be onto something. For me at least, above the 4th partial a CC is significantly more "footsure" than a BBb, and I suppose the tubing taper could have something to do with it.

Neptune wrote:..... But what I have never understood, is why is the USA you start players on BBb - the biggest and most difficult to handle? Starting on Eb as we do in the UK..... makes far more sense

Back when I began playing tuba, starting on Eb here in the US was pretty common. That was in 1956.

ehlutzcem wrote:You know, I hear this cr@p from the college kids that come home every summer and play with our municipal band: "Hey, man, you're out of tune on that Gb. or Db."

Guess what, guys, it's a Bb band. Bring your CC tuba to orchestra.

And by the way, try watching the original version of Disney's "Fantasia." Whoever that tubist was, he was playing a SOUSAPHONE." (at least that's what they show on the film.) Oh, how will you ever get over the shame of it all.........

What makes you think you play in a "Bb band"? Is it the F horns? The Eb saxophones? The C flutes? That darn marimba? Should BBb players stay out of orchestras, then?

If anyone is out of tune, I believe that deficiency is more indicative of the player than their instrument.

ehlutzcem wrote:You know, I hear this cr@p from the college kids that come home every summer and play with our municipal band: "Hey, man, you're out of tune on that Gb. or Db."

Perhaps you could move your 3rd valve slide a bit? Or, alternatively, just ignore what the college kids say (honestly, why would it bother you?) and do what most good players do...try to play in tune with what's around you.

ehlutzcem wrote:Guess what, guys, it's a Bb band. Bring your CC tuba to orchestra.

Wow, elitism from a Bb player in a band...who would have thought it possible? I'm glad I don't hear things like that from the Bb guys I play with in the summer here...how incredibly rude.

I've been through the "C and Bb tubas together in a band section" debate more times than I'd like. My experience in a number of community and college bands tells me that even relatively poor to average players can make it work just fine.

Todd S. "who thinks any decent-quality tuba can play in tune, regardless of its fundamental pitch" Malicoate

ehlutzcem wrote:You know, I hear this cr@p from the college kids that come home every summer and play with our municipal band: "Hey, man, you're out of tune on that Gb. or Db."

Guess what, guys, it's a Bb band. Bring your CC tuba to orchestra.

Sorry to say so, Eric, but by any sane musical standard you are way off the mark on that standpoint of yours. I cannot tell whether the college kids are right or wrong in your special band situation.

It may be the first pedagogical step towards good sectional tuning to get a row of BBb tubists to play uniform pitches on all notes. But if that “section-being-in-tune-on-all-notes” is ruined, when schooled CC-players enter the section, then the tuning efforts have been revealed as just being a very rudimentary step on the road to good band tuning. What the BBb players have achieved is just being uniformly out of tune, which represents no real musical achievement.

You very likely have quoted the pitch complaints correctly, because it is extremely easy to trace the root of the problem:

Amateurs playing 3 valve BBb tubas are born sharp on 1+3 and 1+2+3 fingerings: low C, B natural, F, and E, if they don’t do on the fly slide corrections. Which they rarely do. They rather make a permanent pull on the 3rd slide allowing for in-tune C’s and F’s. That leads to 2+3 fingerings (Db & Gb), which are intolerably flat to musical ears.

How to correct these problem notes?

Make slide adjustments on the fly or get a 4 valve instrument. 4 valve instruments aren’t perfect either, but they allow the very common fingerings of 2+3 and of 1+3 (here converted to 4) to be in tune with the core pitch of the band, not just with a thoroughly faulty sectional pitch, on the notes in question.

ehlutzcem wrote:And by the way, try watching the original version of Disney's "Fantasia." Whoever that tubist was, he was playing a SOUSAPHONE." (at least that's what they show on the film.) Oh, how will you ever get over the shame of it all.........

Yes, the shown brass bass and the heard brass bass are different instruments. Even were so in the original version of that movie according to those in the know.

Nobody fighting towards musical improvement should be ashamed of himself or herself. I obviously am less liberal towards those fighting their right to be out of tune.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

imperialbari wrote:

ehlutzcem wrote:You know, I hear this cr@p from the college kids that come home every summer and play with our municipal band: "Hey, man, you're out of tune on that Gb. or Db."

Amateurs playing 3 valve BBb tubas are born sharp on 1+3 and 1+2+3 fingerings: low C, B natural, F, and E, if they don’t do on the fly slide corrections. Which they rarely do. They rather make a permanent pull on the 3rd slide allowing for in-tune C’s and F’s. That leads to 2+3 fingerings (Db & Gb), which are intolerably flat to musical ears.

You are both right...
Many "older, American made" 3 valve tubas had the third valve made intentionally too long. This made the low C and F 13 combination more-or-less in tune, the 123 B's and E's only somewhat sharp, and the Gb's and Db's somewhat flat. Hence the Gb / Db problem. FWIW, many of these "older, American made" tubas had fairly wide pitch slots which made lipping the notes to the correct pitches possible with minimal slide pulling. However, it has been my experience that often notes that are acknowledged as being out of tune, but are said to be "lipped" are in fact usually just passed over played in their out of tune center.

You may be correct, JP...I have no earthly idea if Bb or C players are more often guilty of thinking "my horn is right, you're out of tune."

But that shouldn't be the point, anyway. Everyone's goal should be to produce an in-tune, homogeneous sound as a section. As always, that can be best accomplished with one's ears rather than their mouth.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:You may be correct, JP...I have no earthly idea if Bb or C players are more often guilty of thinking "my horn is right, you're out of tune."

But that shouldn't be the point, anyway. Everyone's goal should be to produce an in-tune, homogeneous sound as a section. As always, that can be best accomplished with one's ears rather than their mouth.

I agree, my expierence generally (not tuba specific) is that every section has someone who doesn't listen either to suggestions, or their own playing with the section.

I've played both. In concert. Depending on the player, the ensemble, the repertoire, the hall, the mouthpiece, etc., on any given day a CC will sound better than a BBb, and a BBb will sound better than a CC.