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The incompetency thread goes into several directions. I will hijack just one of them.

Despite my being out of the teaching loop I am still interested in the availability of good student instruments. My take on good beginners’ tubas would be the old small British 3 valve Eb’s or the small 3 valve Yamaha BBb’s.

But for the next level I am less sure, as money doesn’t always allow for old or new King 2341’s or YBB-621’s. My own contrabasses are heavy BBb’s with .730 or .750 bores and a CC with a .800+ bore. The CC is a German rotor instrument out of thin brass sheets, so that it isn’t very heavy. But still not ideal for youngsters.

Your ideas, please!

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

imperialbari wrote:The incompetency thread goes into several directions. I will hijack just one of them.

Despite my being out of the teaching loop I am still interested in the availability of good student instruments. My take on good beginners’ tubas would be the old small British 3 valve Eb’s or the small 3 valve Yamaha BBb’s.

But for the next level I am less sure, as money doesn’t always allow for old or new King 2341’s or YBB-621’s. My own contrabasses are heavy BBb’s with .730 or .750 bores and a CC with a .800+ bore. The CC is a German rotor instrument out of thin brass sheets, so that it isn’t very heavy. But still not ideal for youngsters.

There's an Amati 4v toploader (.640 bore/15.7" bell) for $2200, a 4v frontloader (.640 bore/15.7" bell) for $2700 and a 4v frontloader (.720 bore/ 19.7" bell) for $3100. Cerveny has a "Junior" BBb 4v rotary (.638 bore/ 15.7" bell/ 31.5" high) for $2700. (prices from Dillon's)

The prices seem to go up from there.

I like the Olds O-99 too. It's commonly referred to as a 7/8 size, and it worked well for me when I was starting out (yikes, that was 15 years ago??). You can pick up a serviceable used one for much less than $1000.

bigpapajon wrote:

bort wrote:I like the Olds O-99 too. It's commonly referred to as a 7/8 size, and it worked well for me when I was starting out (yikes, that was 15 years ago??). You can pick up a serviceable used one for much less than $1000.

I'm going to keep my eye open for an Olds 99 for the next couple of years...hopefully a beater that I can pay TubaTinker to overhaul. I have a 3yo that has talked about nothing BUT playing the tuba for the past year and walks around buzzing mouthpieces all day. THAT'S MY BOY!

Lucky kid! Hell, lucky dad!

bigpapajon wrote:I'm going to keep my eye open for an Olds 99 for the next couple of years...hopefully a beater that I can pay TubaTinker to overhaul. I have a 3yo that has talked about nothing BUT playing the tuba for the past year and walks around buzzing mouthpieces all day. THAT'S MY BOY!

Find him one of the old 1 or 2 valve contra bugles to put the mouthprice into. He will damage it eventually, but then there should be cheap finds out there.

Klaus

bort wrote:I like the Olds O-99 too. It's commonly referred to as a 7/8 size, and it worked well for me when I was starting out (yikes, that was 15 years ago??). You can pick up a serviceable used one for much less than $1000.

I'm looking for the same qualities, small, light, 4v, front action piston with great intoation and a good sound, in an old man's tuba. The O-99 doesn't show up that often in a 4v. I just bought one and it is the only one I have seen in the last 2 years except for the one "Tinker" had that I missed. You can get a 3v for under $1000 all day long but not the 4v. I think the bloke sold one for around $2000 a few years back.

In a new piston horn the Amati seems to be the choice. Although if money were no object the MW Hojo FA looks awfully good. Every tubanetter that plays them have posted rave reviews here. I don't have the $5000 to spend on a secondary instrument right now, but if they play as advertised that is not too much.

In a rotary I would not pass up the Miraphone 184. I think they are still available new and every once in a while someone will list one. Arnold has one in the for sale forum now if it hasn't already sold. They are great little rotary horns.

How about one of these jupiters?
http://www.wwbw.com/Jupiter-482-Tribune ... 0610.music" target="_blank" target="_blank

and the price seems right:
Our Price: $3,369.00 (WWBW)

Detailed Product Description
The Jupiter 482 Tribune Series 4 Valve BBb Tuba is a smaller version of the model 582 Concert Tuba. The 482 Tribune Series features .709 inch bore with 4 contoured front-action stainless steel piston valves for comfort and smooth performance. Ideal for soloists of any stature, the Jupiter 482 Tribune Series Tuba is the perfect choice for a player looking for a smaller instrument.

just a thought, I like the 582 for students, but it can be a bit big for beginners.
Bill

The Jupiter 482, for a beginner tuba, has increased in quality over the past few years. There is also a 3/4 (or 7/8) rotary model 778 with a 14 1/2 inch bell and .709 bore that is also supposed to be a good beginners tuba, if any rotary valve instrument can be used as beginner instrument.

Weril is also getting a good reputation as a beginner tuba.

I am of the minority who think a beginner tuba, meaning middle school, should be an .640 to .689 bore Eb with a 15 inch bell in order to save weight, and because a lot of beginning tuba players in middle school are converted trumpet players, like me as a freshman in high school converting to marching with a souzy, so the embouchure may not be developed enough to get all the pedals and near pedal tones, but for a middle school band, these are not necessary nor even desireable until embouchure control and breath support are developed.

I am a stickler for the 4th valve, but usually not until about the 8th grade (partly this is economic, only so many horns available, and I want to make sure the student will take good care of it before sticking a good horn in their hands, I remember my own youth!!!!). I have Jupiter 4 valve euphs, and Cervany tubas, and insist the kids use the 4th valve whenever practical.
I do a lot of judging, and I see these kids walk in with 4 valves but no idea how to use them. I always tell them, why carry around all the a tubing if you won't use it (clearly their teachers are woodwind players, or god forbid percussionists! )! Then I draw out a quick fingering chart on their critique sheet!

RadDad2005 wrote: or god forbid percussionists! )!

The evidence suggests that God never forbade percussionists. There are too many running around loose.

One factor that is more important for beginners than for seasoned amateur adults and professionals is durability and repair-ability. So, if I had an opera pit gig I'd take a Piggy in a moment, but wouldn't let a middle schooler anywhere near it because of the thin metal. Likewise, I may not care for an old Olds 3/4, but it is portable, plays decently, and won't crinkle and die the first time it gets bumped (btw -- I know where there are two of them silent hibernating, waiting for my son to get to middle school so I can borrow one of them; sorry, I'm not telling where).

If bloke likes the Schiller, it's because to him it strikes a balance between price, durability, repair-ability and playability which should be considered.

cerveny CC piggy. its good to start 'em young

hurricane_harry wrote:cerveny CC piggy. its good to start 'em young

I am not questioning the musical aspects of your statement, but what about its physical survival prospects in a tough schoolband environment?

Klaus

bloke, both of us have shoved dirt on each other, causing no problems between us. When you recommended the Schiller I kind of thought you had had one in your hands. I cannot quite tell whether I was wrong after reading your last posting.

I have no first hand experience with mainland Chinese instruments, as I have listened to repair people telling about their refusal to repair them. But I have first hand experience Chinese citizens abusing the UN system set up to salvage ethnic Chinese refugees out of North Vietnam after the US left Saigon. It is deeply engrained in Chinese culture that it is all fine to cheat any other ethnic group. I have a mule in such scheme, and I don’t forget that.

Yet I am itching for an instrument out of mainland China, which I never could afford from Alexander, Paxman, or Hoyer. It of course is a Wagner tuba. But from the eBay user forum I have been warned about all the handling and other fees surfacing on the invoice after NOT being mentioned in the auction presentations.

I know that if you had a child or a grandchild starting out on tuba, you would find an American instrument and put a sufficient number of hours into it. The Schiller is what you find the optimum for those having to buy for themselves.

But would you repair a Schiller?

Klaus

.

I work part-time for a good instrument repairman here in town. I do most of his summer work now, including a lot of school owned tubas. One of the primary concerns for a band director is how well the horn will hold up in the hands of kids. I see some pretty badly beat up horns, but I've noticed that the higher quality horns are usually in bettert shape. Jupiters, St. Petersburgs, and Dalyans have all been mentioned in this thread, but I've had bad experiences with them. On the other hand, schools who use old beat up Kings, Conns, and Yamahas tend to have fewer problems. Although cosmetically these horns are not as enticing as a shiny new Dalyan, a higher quality horn will have fewer mechanical problems. It would be ideal if every school or beginner could purchase a miraphone or Meinl-Weston, an instrument like a Yamaha is a good compromise. Furthermore, Yamaha is extremely good at standardizing their parts. All repair techs should have surplus parts for a Yamaha laying around. This is just my opinion.

bloke wrote:The front-action King 1140 (and Dynasty/Jupiter Taiwan copies) plays great, but I sure hate to see them come in for repair when all of the vertically-oriented slide tubes (particularly mouthpipe and 3rd slide areas) have been torn apart and mashed into the body of the instrument.

From a repair point of view, what do you think of the Amatis I mentioned earlier- both the top and front loader 4v horns. The Amati Eb I have went through the school system and is pretty much intact but it appears to not have been used very much.

bloke wrote:The Schiller looks to be some sort of hybrid cross between the Allora (Miraphone copy) 191 and the Dalyan (Cerveny pig copy) "Prague"...

...but the "retail" (BuyItNow) price is about half of the lowest prices I've seen for the other two models.

Seriously, which might (??) be a better value? A Yamaha 105 peashooter 3-valve gruntaphone for $3400 (NO CASE) or a full-size/4-valve Schiller "Communist Heritage" for $1600 or so WITH a deluxe case?

That Schiller sure does look an awful lot like a Hirsbrunner HBS 192. From orientation of slides to the routing of the leadpipe, they look the same. If I had seen the pic below on the left by its lonesome, I would swear it was an HB.

Bob??

bloke wrote:Congratulations Bob.
....

Thanks Frank!

bloke wrote:Broad-brushing all Chinese tubas as "bad" (particularly before individual models are closely-examined) would seemingly tend to be about as accurate as stating that all American trumpets are "good".
...

I couldn't agree more.

I have played three different Chinese made copies of the VMI/B&S/Sonora/Gerhard Sneider/etc... 4/4ish BBb tuba. All three had different brand names engraved on them. All three were decent. They weren't as sonically pleasing as the Geretsried-made originals that I've played, but are all those 6/4 monstrous York-o-phones on the market 100% as good as the instrument they intend to copy?

I would wager that better than half the folks that post on TubeNet about Chinese instruments being lesser than instruments from other parts of the world fall into one of two camps.

The first is folks that simply regurgitate what they read or hear on TubeNet. There are a lot of "third party" opinions around here.

The second is those folks that have already made up their minds made up that the Chinese instruments will be lousy. Even when they do play one, they think it's lousy because their minds were already made up prior to picking up the horn.

If you have played a tuba made in China and you hate that particular tuba, that's fine. That experience does not apply to every other tuba made in China. There is a lot of American/German/Swiss/etc stuff that is also terrible.

People should make up their own minds by playing the horns themselves.


-Christian