TubeNet

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tubashaman2 wrote:.....but a great player can still make it sound good right?

I am probably wrong like always.....but this is my opinion and I will stand behind it

You are correct, sir.

A famous English tubist, who's name I'll not drop yet again, made my relatively inexpensive Amati sound wonderful. Wonderful enough that I swore to not buy a better tuba until I could make mine sound like he did.

I still have that tuba.

schlepporello wrote:I grabbed his horn, stuck my mouthpiece in it and started playing... The rest of the people in my group couldn't believe it was the same horn. It sounded wonderful.

Obviously, then, it was your mouthpiece!

lgb&dtuba wrote:A famous English tubist, who's name I'll not drop yet again, made my relatively inexpensive Amati sound wonderful. Wonderful enough that I swore to not buy a better tuba until I could make mine sound like he did.

I still have that tuba.

I have the same story. The player in mine was J.c. Sherman. I was in one of those lukewarm moments about my horn till he played it. After he handed it back, I said to myself, "well, it must be me".

The resulting sound is made of three components. The player, the mouthpiece and the tuba. Of those the player is by far the most important, but a playable tuba is still needed by the best of tubists

I have this week got a Zoom H2 recorder and have been trying out recording playing each of my tubas and comparing their tones. Although all different, they are all obviously ME - my characteristic tone comes through.

Greg wrote:So if the instrument make no difference, then why don't you go get rid of your Miraphones and buy small bore chinese made tubas?

not sure that this is a fair comment, since we all work hard to get the instruments we want.
some bad players wil always have more money than sense, and buy expensive instruments and still sound bad when playing them...life is full of injustice!!

peter birch wrote:

Greg wrote:So if the instrument make no difference, then why don't you go get rid of your Miraphones and buy small bore chinese made tubas?

not sure that this is a fair comment, since we all work hard to get the instruments we want.
some bad players wil always have more money than sense, and buy expensive instruments and still sound bad when playing them...life is full of injustice!!

Obviously, if you were to conduct an experiment with an amateur and a professional playing on a beat up, leaky Yamaha ¾ beginner tuba and an MW 5450, the result would be that the professional will sound better on both. This conclusion is so predictable, that it would b e waste of time to even pursue such an experiment. That being said, the professional will sound much better on the MW 5450 than on the beginner Yamaha. That’s why we all endeavor to purchase an instrument that will give us the best opportunity to sound great and you have to pay more for that quality. While I agree that the player is the dominant factor, it would be as foolish for Alan Baer to use an old 3 valve ¾ Yamaha with the NY Phil as it would be for Jeff Gordon to race my old ’93 Toyota Corolla in Daytona 500.

Eric B wrote:
Obviously, if you were to conduct an experiment with an amateur and a professional playing on a beat up, leaky Yamaha ¾ beginner tuba and an MW 5450, the result would be that the professional will sound better on both. This conclusion is so predictable, that it would b e waste of time to even pursue such an experiment. That being said, the professional will sound much better on the MW 5450 than on the beginner Yamaha. That’s why we all endeavor to purchase an instrument that will give us the best opportunity to sound great and you have to pay more for that quality. While I agree that the player is the dominant factor, it would be as foolish for Alan Baer to use an old 3 valve ¾ Yamaha with the NY Phil as it would be for Jeff Gordon to race my old ’93 Toyota Corolla in Daytona 500.

This sums it up. And further, we all like nice things.........whether I was a good or bad player...If I loved playing and had the money, why not buy a "nice" new horn? But of course, who hates vintage either? I like those old horns.......

Variety? I think so.

duh

schlepporello wrote:

Greg wrote:So if the instrument make no difference, then why don't you go get rid of your Miraphones and buy small bore chinese made tubas?

Because I've got a fist full of dollars and I want me a tuba with a silver bell ring.
It's a "bling" kinda thing.

You are so terribly right and true, Schleppy!

I have seen photos of you without a tuba, and you really need to be bling’ed up!

While we are at it:

Is Schlepporello your misspelling of “repository cello”?

K, who never knew of WAM visiting the Texas upper panhandle

Oh, missus is just a smokescreen for that hairdresser&customer thing?

K

PS: For those not having seen ’cello depicted just the information that his coiffure is named Crew Cut Extra Short

I sold a student model horn (King 1140 BBb) to a tuba professor who was acting as an agent for a private middle school. I met him at his practice room so he could play it to check it out before he paid for it. He went through a quick routine and sounded fantastic! Much better that me. I hope so- he's a tuba professor and I'm a Trumpet Doofus. I asked him to go through a similar routine on his horn so I could hear the difference. He humored me by picking up his horn and giving me a show. (I don't remember what it was. It was a CC.) He showed off a little by going up high and then down low and then reaaallly fast. He sounded so much better on his horn. The difference was noticeable.

A serious student should have a minimum standard of instrument. There are many under $3K instruments which could do the job. Looking closely and getting lucky, a student might get something under $2K. If enrolled in a reputable college program, there might be something the student could use at the college . There also might be an alumni who might be willing to be a 'tubadaddy' by loaning a horn, selling it on 'rent to own' or maybe even donate a horn. I bet there are any number of people who read this board who own more than one horn and would be willing to furnish a horn to a promising student on those conditions. We went through this in another thread.

Bloke has talked about a guy who won a major Army job who had never had a lesson other than school band and played a fiberglass, 3v souzy. Obviously, an exceptional talent. But few are an 'exceptional talent'. A student shouldn't have to fight the problems of a less than suitable instrument. There are many more things to learn and the horn must not get in the way.

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Yes, a great player can make a bad horn sound great.

Case in point - go to a tuba show in the exhibit room when a great player is there. When he stumbles accross the TE, they plant down a SP on them and they sound great, there it is. Now all you have to do is take a picture of them with the SP (for a little free advertising to an unknowing band director) then you're starting.

The opposite is true. Bring in a great horn for trade and let VS play it. It will sound like crap and offer you peanuts for it. Now you've got it down!

Yes, a bad player can make a great horn sound bad.

BierGeek wrote:

Bob1062 wrote:Why the hell is "peashooter" such a thing to be avoided?

Can you truthfully say that a "peashooter" is superior to a trombone with an F-attachment?

What I'm beginning to wonder is does "peashooter" in this case necessarily indicate a student model small bore instrument? You CAN find trombones that have a large "professional" bore without an F attatchment. If so, then the student may not be at as much of a disadvantage. (I suspect that the player indeed isn't playing on what everyone is calling a peashooter and probably just has a bone without an F attachment)

Jazz musicians? I don't know an of them personally who use a true peashooter. Their bones just simply don't have an F attachment.

An actual peashooter....as in small bore, student bone.....yes, should be avoided. The tiny bore makes the sound just not...well, professional sounding and gets a nasty edge on it...(nasty in my opinion... ) But the F attachment? You could get principal chair in a college band without it. Just like I could get a principal job with a 4 valve tuba....(not that I have one anymore...)

pierso20 wrote:

BierGeek wrote:

Bob1062 wrote:Why the hell is "peashooter" such a thing to be avoided?

Can you truthfully say that a "peashooter" is superior to a trombone with an F-attachment?

What I'm beginning to wonder is does "peashooter" in this case necessarily indicate a student model small bore instrument? You CAN find trombones that have a large "professional" bore without an F attatchment. If so, then the student may not be at as much of a disadvantage. (I suspect that the player indeed isn't playing on what everyone is calling a peashooter and probably just has a bone without an F attachment)

Jazz musicians? I don't know an of them personally who use a true peashooter. Their bones just simply don't have an F attachment.

An actual peashooter....as in small bore, student bone.....yes, should be avoided. The tiny bore makes the sound just not...well, professional sounding and gets a nasty edge on it...(nasty in my opinion... ) But the F attachment? You could get principal chair in a college band without it. Just like I could get a principal job with a 4 valve tuba....(not that I have one anymore...)

Not to add fuel to this fire, but just because a horn is a "peashooter" (ie small bore) doesn't mean it's not a professional instrument, or that it isn't a great horn. A true pro picks the horn that works the best and makes them sound the best for the situation they're playing in. A great player can make any horn sound pretty great, but they also seek the best horns to play on. Period.

[quote="jonesbrassNot to add fuel to this fire, but just because a horn is a "peashooter" (ie small bore) doesn't mean it's not a professional instrument, or that it isn't a great horn. A true pro picks the horn that works the best and makes them sound the best for the situation they're playing in. A great player can make any horn sound pretty great, but they also seek the best horns to play on. Period.[/quote]

I promise you.....a true professional isn't likely to pick a "peashooter". Maybe in certain jazz or dixi settings but not a symphonic player. (I'll bet even the jazz guys play on a larger bore horn). And the real point I was making is that the Trombone player in question (based on that scenario) is likely playing a large bore Trombone. I feel like theres has been some assumptions that a trombone without an F attachment is automatically a "peashooter".

Plus, yes...you're right....a true pro picks the horn that works best....but find me a true pro who will play a garbage instrument by choice!

pierso20 wrote:

BierGeek wrote:

Bob1062 wrote:Why the hell is "peashooter" such a thing to be avoided?

Can you truthfully say that a "peashooter" is superior to a trombone with an F-attachment?

What I'm beginning to wonder is does "peashooter" in this case necessarily indicate a student model small bore instrument? You CAN find trombones that have a large "professional" bore without an F attatchment. If so, then the student may not be at as much of a disadvantage. (I suspect that the player indeed isn't playing on what everyone is calling a peashooter and probably just has a bone without an F attachment)

Jazz musicians? I don't know an of them personally who use a true peashooter. Their bones just simply don't have an F attachment.

An actual peashooter....as in small bore, student bone.....yes, should be avoided. The tiny bore makes the sound just not...well, professional sounding and gets a nasty edge on it...(nasty in my opinion... ) But the F attachment? You could get principal chair in a college band without it. Just like I could get a principal job with a 4 valve tuba....(not that I have one anymore...)

I cannot imagine any trombone with a .500 bore being labeled as a 'peashooter' and not being useful for anything. To do so would eliminate some really great jazz instruments... like the Conn 6H, the King 2B, and the early King Tempo. Once again... ANY instrument in the hands of someone who can't play becomes lethal.

pierso20 wrote:

jonesbrass wrote:Not to add fuel to this fire, but just because a horn is a "peashooter" (ie small bore) doesn't mean it's not a professional instrument, or that it isn't a great horn. A true pro picks the horn that works the best and makes them sound the best for the situation they're playing in. A great player can make any horn sound pretty great, but they also seek the best horns to play on. Period.

I promise you.....a true professional isn't likely to pick a "peashooter". Maybe in certain jazz or dixi settings but not a symphonic player. (I'll bet even the jazz guys play on a larger bore horn). And the real point I was making is that the Trombone player in question (based on that scenario) is likely playing a large bore Trombone. I feel like theres has been some assumptions that a trombone without an F attachment is automatically a "peashooter".

Plus, yes...you're right....a true pro picks the horn that works best....but find me a true pro who will play a garbage instrument by choice!

Exactly. But symphonic players aren't the only pros out there. Even a symphonic player will pick up a smaller bore horn to play a commercial or jazz gig. They probably aren't going to show up with their large-bore shires with the axial flow valve. Just like a military band tuba player isn't going to show up with his Hirsbrunner Grand Orchestra tuba for the ceremonial band gig (ie marching band), they show up with the sousa.
Now a "garbage" horn? That's a whole other matter.