Intonation problems...

[Tubman]

For just about my whole first semester in college I've been playing on my school's old Yamaha YCB-861 Custom CC, and the intonation on it is quite frustrating. I would go into my lessons and play duets with my teacher, Professor Andrew Miller and be in tune with him, but, by the time I got to wind ensemble rehearsal a few hours later, I would have a very hard time finding my section leader's pitch which would subsequently lead to him yelling at me about my intonation. At first, Professor Miller came to the conclusion that I wasn't buzzing the exact, in-tune pitch. I've been working on that for the past few months with a tuner and I can buzz along with our Steinway pianos in tune easily enough, but the intonation problems still persist. I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which might help, but then again I can't be too sure. It seems as though I'm in tune with everybody outside of rehearsal, and I'm running out of answers and options. What can I do to fix this once and for all?

[imperialbari]

From experience I would consider two scenarios:

Your professor, as an able player, would by courtesy adjust his intonation to yours potentially flawed one to avoid hurting you. Your professor hardly would have achieved his position, if he hadn’t pursued professional standards with his students. I very much doubt this being the problem.

Your section leader knows he can intimidate you to under-perform by bullying you. And then he might rather have achieved his chair through seniority than from having a personal standard of intonation being good enough to be imposed upon the section as its general standard.

Your professor likely is the teacher of the section leader also. It might be a relevant task for your professor to test that side of the equation including some potential personality adjustment aspects.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Tubman]

I personally won't be a lot of help providing an answer for you, but I do know there's a lot of fellow engineers that are members of this post. The first thing I thought was, "need.....more.....data....." So are you sharp or flat? What kind of mouthpiece are you using? And....does your section leader who's complaining about your intonation play a Bb horn or a C horn?

Honestly, it's all over the map when I'm playing with my section leader. I use a PT50 mouthpiece, and he plays on one of the first generation rotary PT-6's with the thinner brass.

[Tubman]

From experience I would consider two scenarios:

Your professor, as an able player, would by courtesy adjust his intonation to yours potentially flawed one to avoid hurting you. Your professor hardly would have achieved his position, if he hadn’t pursued professional standards with his students. I very much doubt this being the problem.

Your section leader knows he can intimidate you to under-perform by bullying you. And then he might rather have achieved his chair through seniority than from having a personal standard of intonation being good enough to be imposed upon the section as its general standard.

Your professor likely is the teacher of the section leader also. It might be a relevant task for your professor to test that side of the equation including some potential personality adjustment aspects.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

I thought that might be the case, but I've never dared to say so for fear of looking/sounding like a pompous a**. It might still be me, but I never had the intonation problems that bad until I started playing with this guy. I'm not quite sure what to think about the whole thing.

[MikeMason]

Amen Tuben.

[Tubman]

It seems as though I'm in tune with everybody outside of rehearsal, and I'm running out of answers and options. What can I do to fix this once and for all?

Just listen like mad and make the beats go away.... Tuning is simple once you train your ear to hear the relatively low beats we generate as tuba players..... Tuning with a tuner will show you the inherent challenges to your instrument, but should not be used in rehearsal as pitch changes with temperature AND it changes with your notes function in the chord.....

Trust what Andy says, he won't lead you wrong.... If your section leader continues to 'yell at you', suggest a sectional for the tubas so you can all work out the pitch problems.... If he says no, then suggest a different seating arrangement so you can better hear his pitch..... If he STILL says no, f**k him, listen for the pitch as best you can and go on....

While it is your responsibility to play in tune, if your section leader is not willing to assist you in that matter, then (IMHO) he does not deserve to be a section leader...

RC
(who tunes constantly)

Thanks, man. I'll try that out with him. Hopefully, it doesn't come to the "f**k you" scenario.

[Tubainsauga]

Aside from whats already been said (all good advice), just remember that good intonation is largely balance and blend. Focusing on pitch as an absolute doesn't really work as well as it should. Focusing on blend usually pulls the intonation into place pretty well. Then again, your results may vary.

[Roger Lewis]

I would trust Andy Miller over everything. He's a great teacher and a great player. What you are up against is the "feces principle": "Intonation is like feces - yours always smells better than that of the person in the next stall". I suspect that your section leader might need some work.

I would also suggest that you stop trying to play in tune with each other and both of you start playing in tune with what you hear. That's the most important thing. If you are in tune with each other and 20 cents off from the ensemble, then you have accomplished nothing.

Perhaps, with Andy's teaching he is showing you "pure tuning" where the pitches are adjusted to match the key centers, whereas your section leader is not following these un-written rules and is just following the meter on the tuner.

Go here: to learn more about this:
http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

Roger

[Tubman]

I have to believe that you own a c. $20 tuner...(??)

If you spend some time with that tuner in a room that is c. 70 - 72 degrees (several hours over several weeks), you'll *know* which pitches are funky on that instrument. If it's like many other Yamaha models, there will be quite a few. Once you *know* which pitches are problematic and know - basically - where to put them, you can then turn with confidence back to your section leader (offering a "gesture of goodwill") and reply with something like, "Tune this." (etc.)

Also, be aware that (particularly with students/amateurs) pitch tends to go way off-center when playing very loud and very soft. Check out all of your pitches with big crescendos and diminuendos (or, as they seem to prefer to refer them in wind ensembles: decrescendos).

All tubas (that I've played and owned) have several pitches that are wildly out-of-tune and that require some sorts of remedies. Even the very well thought-of (intonation-wise) Miraphone model 188 CC is no exception, but is said to be a very in-tune model of tuba because its quirks are fewer and less severe compared to most other models.

My best guess is that if I audited the overall intonation of some playing by your section leader, I wouldn't be particularly impressed. I would be probably willing to bet $X,XXX (without hearing him in advance) that - were I to ask him to play some scales (with an electronic tuner facing me and another "witness") - I would be able to find some intonation discrepancies of at least twenty hundredths of a semitone...but - at this point - I'd probably be willing to wager the same regarding your playing as well...

I would tend to agree with Klaus that is it most likely that both you and your section leader have significant "intonation improvement journeys" lying ahead of you and that, yes - most likely, your teacher (as a force of habit) was adjusting his intonation to your intonation during those duets and play-alongs in your lessons.

Intonation skills are aural - not visual. Hopefully, you have one of those electronic tuners with a small speaker that generates all 12 pitches (at least in one octave). Play solos/passages/whatever with the tonic, dominant, or median of a key playing through that little speaker, and use your best aural judgment to play in-tune with that "drone". You'll improve quickly, and gain a tremendous amount of confidence relating to these issues.

I've only recently started using my tuner regularly recently. Most of the time I've been tuning myself with our pianos, which most aren't in tune with each other, in order to work on adjusting to different pitch centers. Being a freshman in college I've got a long way to go before I get to a point where stuff like this will be second nature, but in the mean time I'm doing my best to try and play in tune with both my section leader and the ensemble, which is proving to be a challenge. Would it help if I convinced him to sit on my right side so I would be able to hear him, and the ensemble, a little better?

[Tubman]

I would trust Andy Miller over everything. He's a great teacher and a great player. What you are up against is the "feces principle": "Intonation is like feces - yours always smells better than that of the person in the next stall". I suspect that your section leader might need some work.

I would also suggest that you stop trying to play in tune with each other and BOTH OF YOU START PLAYING IN TUNE WITH WHAT YOU HEAR! That's the most important thing. If you are in tune with each other and 20 cents off from the ensemble, then you have accomplished NOTHING.

Perhaps, with Andy's teaching he is showing you "pure tuning" where the pitches are adjusted to match the key centers, whereas your section leader is not following these un-written rules and is just following the meter on the tuner.

Go here: to learn more about this:
http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Roger

I'm pretty sure he hasn't used a tuner since his sophomore year...and I do recall a few nebulous pitches between him and the piano when I was listening to his senior recital not too long ago. I kinda feel like an *** for calling him out on it on tubenet. I will say that I'm not the best in that department either, but when it's just me and the ensemble I don't have nearly as many problems, if any. I'm just confused and frustrated about the whole situation. I was able to manage to get into Eastman (which is too expensive, I might add), so I thought my intonation was alright, but I really don't know what to think any more.

[Tubman]

You might try bringing this up in your next lesson with Andy. I know he will be able to help you solve this.

I do admire your willingness to search for an answer by looking within first. Seems to be a rarity today.

Thanks, man. I've been working on that particular aspect of my personality for a while now, and it's benefited me quite a lot. If I can find out what I'm doing wrong I can normally fix it with my teacher's help, but I've tried just about everything that's been said on this subject, without asking him to switch seats with me so i could hear him better. I will keep trying, though. Hopefully I can work this out before I have to take over the section next year.

[windshieldbug]

I'm pretty sure he hasn't used a tuner since his sophomore year...and I do recall a few nebulous pitches between him and the piano when I was listening to his senior recital not too long ago. I kinda feel like an *** for calling him out on it on tubenet.

Then don't. Nor should you need affirmation.

Listen to the best lesson you will ever get for free:

I would also suggest that you stop trying to play in tune with each other and BOTH OF YOU START PLAYING IN TUNE WITH WHAT YOU HEAR! That's the most important thing. If you are in tune with each other and 20 cents off from the ensemble, then you have accomplished NOTHING.

Don't discount Roger because he isn't charging you. He knows what is what. You do have a long way to go, but will get there faster if you value people that are helping you, not complaining about those who don't.

[Tubman]

I'm pretty sure he hasn't used a tuner since his sophomore year...and I do recall a few nebulous pitches between him and the piano when I was listening to his senior recital not too long ago. I kinda feel like an *** for calling him out on it on tubenet.

Then don't. Nor should you need affirmation.

Listen to the best lesson you will ever get for free:

I would also suggest that you stop trying to play in tune with each other and BOTH OF YOU START PLAYING IN TUNE WITH WHAT YOU HEAR! That's the most important thing. If you are in tune with each other and 20 cents off from the ensemble, then you have accomplished NOTHING.

Don't discount Roger because he isn't charging you. He knows what is what. You do have a long way to go, but will get there faster if you value people that are helping you, not complaining about those who don't.

I'm pretty sure I was agreeing with him, but I can, at times, try to say one thing and have it come out the other way by accident. I'm not trying to complain about anything, but if that's how I'm coming across, I apologize. The last thing I want to do is offend people that are trying to help me.

[eupher61]

I sort of disagree with the concept of the teacher adjusting pitch to the student. If the teacher is in the right on pitch, and the student isn't, what's the learning value of playing duets if pitch is altered to less than right?

[Tubman]

I sort of disagree with the concept of the teacher adjusting pitch to the student. If the teacher is in the right on pitch, and the student isn't, what's the learning value of playing duets if pitch is altered to less than right?

I agree. In the past few weeks Professor Miller's been making me adjust to him, which I've found helpful, but it didn't quite solve the problem. What DID solve, in conjunction with taking the advice given to me by my teacher and those people generous enough to send replies to this posting, the problem was giving my tuba a bath and running a snake through it. Oh the complete and utter expression of terror on the face of my room mate as I ran the snake through the tubing, freeing all of the fungus, paper towel waste, and cheese/congealed valve oil out into the bath tub. I played it in rehearsal today and was in tune with both the ensemble AND my section leader.

Thank you:

imperialbari

tuben

Tubainsauga

bloke

Roger Lewis

LJV

windshieldbug *especially, considering I didn't think my answer to Roger Lewis through well enough to get my true point across.*

eupher61

Thanks to you all!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm completely turned around by this story now.

You said at first you felt like you were in tune with everyone else outside of rehearsal but were having trouble matching with your section leader. You also mentioned that you cleaned your horn with a snake and it didn't help. Now, you cleaned your horn with a snake, a lot of junk came out, and the problem is solved. Did I miss something?

[Tubman]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm completely turned around by this story now.

You said at first you felt like you were in tune with everyone else outside of rehearsal but were having trouble matching with your section leader. You also mentioned that you cleaned your horn with a snake and it didn't help. Now, you cleaned your horn with a snake, a lot of junk came out, and the problem is solved. Did I miss something?

Unfortunately, I included the story about cleaning out the tuba earlier on without explaining that I wasn't sure if it would help or not. I can be a very confusing, and confused, person, at times. I apologize for any misunderstandings and type-Os on my part. Sometimes the pressure of college can get to 'ya and make you say some pretty weird stuff that you didn't mean to say in that way.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

No big deal, dude. I was just confused and didn't understand how something you had already done and you said didn't help...suddenly helped!

I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which helped, but the problem still remains.

I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which might help, but then again I can't be too sure.

Communication's a bitch, ain't it???

Hey, at least we had a nice discussion about ensemble tuning over a problem that solved itself before the original post!

[Tubman]

No big deal, dude. I was just confused and didn't understand how something you had already done and you said didn't help...suddenly helped!

I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which helped, but the problem still remains.

I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which might help, but then again I can't be too sure.

Communication's a bitch, ain't it???

Hey, at least we had a nice discussion about ensemble tuning over a problem that solved itself before the original post!

Haha! I'm still glad I posted this, though. It helped to get some of these ideas and ways to fix things through my thick skull. I'll be sure to make a post whenever I have a monumental problem...next time I'll make sure to think things through a bit better before I go making a donkey of myself again.

[Roger Lewis]

I just wanted to share a story I was told by a very fine horn player who works with my quintet from time-to-time, and he started off on Sousaphone.

The sousaphone section leader was unaware that there were 12 different fingerings in a scale and only used 8. Therefore Gb, G natural and G# were all the same fingering - 1&2. You just made the horn DO what you wanted it to. And it worked - for two years together they played in tune with the band and each other without knowing that more fingerings were available to them. This shows great listening skills and shows what can be accomplished by the unknowing.

After two years of sousaphone, a very cute girl joined the band in the horn section. He switched to horn so he could sit next to her. This is when he found out that there were more fingerings he should have been aware of.

Back to work.
Roger