TubeNet

ehlutzcem wrote:I personally won't be a lot of help providing an answer for you, but I do know there's a lot of fellow engineers that are members of this post. The first thing I thought was, "need.....more.....data....." So are you sharp or flat? What kind of mouthpiece are you using? And....does your section leader who's complaining about your intonation play a Bb horn or a C horn?

imperialbari wrote:From experience I would consider two scenarios:

Your professor, as an able player, would by courtesy adjust his intonation to yours potentially flawed one to avoid hurting you. Your professor hardly would have achieved his position, if he hadn’t pursued professional standards with his students. I very much doubt this being the problem.

Your section leader knows he can intimidate you to under-perform by bullying you. And then he might rather have achieved his chair through seniority than from having a personal standard of intonation being good enough to be imposed upon the section as its general standard.

Your professor likely is the teacher of the section leader also. It might be a relevant task for your professor to test that side of the equation including some potential personality adjustment aspects.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

tuben wrote:

Tubman wrote:It seems as though I'm in tune with everybody outside of rehearsal, and I'm running out of answers and options. What can I do to fix this once and for all?

Just listen like mad and make the beats go away.... Tuning is simple once you train your ear to hear the relatively low beats we generate as tuba players..... Tuning with a tuner will show you the inherent challenges to your instrument, but should not be used in rehearsal as pitch changes with temperature AND it changes with your notes function in the chord.....

Trust what Andy says, he won't lead you wrong.... If your section leader continues to 'yell at you', suggest a sectional for the tubas so you can all work out the pitch problems.... If he says no, then suggest a different seating arrangement so you can better hear his pitch..... If he STILL says no, f**k him, listen for the pitch as best you can and go on....

While it is your responsibility to play in tune, if your section leader is not willing to assist you in that matter, then (IMHO) he does not deserve to be a section leader...

RC
(who tunes constantly)

bloke wrote:I have to believe that you own a c. $20 tuner...(??)

If you spend some time with that tuner in a room that is c. 70 - 72 degrees (several hours over several weeks), you'll *know* which pitches are funky on that instrument. If it's like many other Yamaha models, there will be quite a few. Once you *know* which pitches are problematic and know - basically - where to put them, you can then turn with confidence back to your section leader (offering a "gesture of goodwill") and reply with something like, "Tune this." (etc.)

Also, be aware that (particularly with students/amateurs) pitch tends to go way off-center when playing very loud and very soft. Check out all of your pitches with big crescendos and diminuendos (or, as they seem to prefer to refer them in wind ensembles: decrescendos).

All tubas (that I've played and owned) have several pitches that are wildly out-of-tune and that require some sorts of remedies. Even the very well thought-of (intonation-wise) Miraphone model 188 CC is no exception, but is said to be a very in-tune model of tuba because its quirks are fewer and less severe compared to most other models.

My best guess is that if I audited the overall intonation of some playing by your section leader, I wouldn't be particularly impressed. I would be probably willing to bet $X,XXX (without hearing him in advance) that - were I to ask him to play some scales (with an electronic tuner facing me and another "witness") - I would be able to find some intonation discrepancies of at least twenty hundredths of a semitone...but - at this point - I'd probably be willing to wager the same regarding your playing as well...

I would tend to agree with Klaus that is it most likely that both you and your section leader have significant "intonation improvement journeys" lying ahead of you and that, yes - most likely, your teacher (as a force of habit) was adjusting his intonation to your intonation during those duets and play-alongs in your lessons.

Intonation skills are aural - not visual. Hopefully, you have one of those electronic tuners with a small speaker that generates all 12 pitches (at least in one octave). Play solos/passages/whatever with the tonic, dominant, or median of a key playing through that little speaker, and use your best aural judgment to play in-tune with that "drone". You'll improve quickly, and gain a tremendous amount of confidence relating to these issues.

Roger Lewis wrote:I would trust Andy Miller over everything. He's a great teacher and a great player. What you are up against is the "feces principle": "Intonation is like feces - yours always smells better than that of the person in the next stall". I suspect that your section leader might need some work.

I would also suggest that you stop trying to play in tune with each other and BOTH OF YOU START PLAYING IN TUNE WITH WHAT YOU HEAR! That's the most important thing. If you are in tune with each other and 20 cents off from the ensemble, then you have accomplished NOTHING.

Perhaps, with Andy's teaching he is showing you "pure tuning" where the pitches are adjusted to match the key centers, whereas your section leader is not following these un-written rules and is just following the meter on the tuner.

Go here: to learn more about this:
http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Roger

LJV wrote:You might try bringing this up in your next lesson with Andy. I know he will be able to help you solve this.

I do admire your willingness to search for an answer by looking within first. Seems to be a rarity today.

Tubman wrote:I'm pretty sure he hasn't used a tuner since his sophomore year...and I do recall a few nebulous pitches between him and the piano when I was listening to his senior recital not too long ago. I kinda feel like an *** for calling him out on it on tubenet.

Roger Lewis wrote:I would also suggest that you stop trying to play in tune with each other and BOTH OF YOU START PLAYING IN TUNE WITH WHAT YOU HEAR! That's the most important thing. If you are in tune with each other and 20 cents off from the ensemble, then you have accomplished NOTHING.

windshieldbug wrote:

Tubman wrote:I'm pretty sure he hasn't used a tuner since his sophomore year...and I do recall a few nebulous pitches between him and the piano when I was listening to his senior recital not too long ago. I kinda feel like an *** for calling him out on it on tubenet.

Then don't. Nor should you need affirmation.

Listen to the best lesson you will ever get for free:

Roger Lewis wrote:I would also suggest that you stop trying to play in tune with each other and BOTH OF YOU START PLAYING IN TUNE WITH WHAT YOU HEAR! That's the most important thing. If you are in tune with each other and 20 cents off from the ensemble, then you have accomplished NOTHING.

Don't discount Roger because he isn't charging you. He knows what is what. You do have a long way to go, but will get there faster if you value people that are helping you, not complaining about those who don't.

eupher61 wrote:I sort of disagree with the concept of the teacher adjusting pitch to the student. If the teacher is in the right on pitch, and the student isn't, what's the learning value of playing duets if pitch is altered to less than right?

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I'm completely turned around by this story now.

You said at first you felt like you were in tune with everyone else outside of rehearsal but were having trouble matching with your section leader. You also mentioned that you cleaned your horn with a snake and it didn't help. Now, you cleaned your horn with a snake, a lot of junk came out, and the problem is solved. Did I miss something?

Tubman originally wrote:I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which helped, but the problem still remains.

Tubman, after an edit for clarity(!), wrote:I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which might help, but then again I can't be too sure.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:No big deal, dude. I was just confused and didn't understand how something you had already done and you said didn't help...suddenly helped!

Tubman originally wrote:I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which helped, but the problem still remains.

Tubman, after an edit for clarity(!), wrote:I've even tried giving the horn a bath and running a snake through it, which might help, but then again I can't be too sure.

Communication's a bitch, ain't it???

Hey, at least we had a nice discussion about ensemble tuning over a problem that solved itself before the original post!