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tubashaman2 wrote:Im not perfect with scales....

Yikes! You're a senior in college!

Scales are an extremely important part of mastering the instrument. I'm amazed how many otherwise excellent players in college can't play their scales. They require face time (not really any exceptions) and provide you with the basis of good technique. The patterns learned with mastery of scales should be so integral to a high-level player that they become part of muscle memory...that makes many technical passages of solos and orchestral excerpts much easier and less difficult to "work up."

At a minimum, university-level students should master all 49 scales (major, all 3 forms of minor, and chromatic) by the end of their sophomore year. After that, you should explore the synthetic scales (modes, whole tone, pentatonics, and both variations of octatonic (diminshed) scales). If you still crave more work after that, check out the warm-up and etude books of Michael Davis over at http://www.hip-bonemusic.com/...click on the "Music" link at the top of the page.

Scales...they're not just for jazz players anymore.

I am fortunate to get compliments on my playing, including sight reading. But I shouldn't be getting some of those compliments, because all they are is looking a few measures ahead, seeing where the harmony is going, and being able to work out the progression and sequences because of knowing scales and a modicum of ear training.

The one recent instance where knowing scales was the saving point in particular was last spring the community band I played in had an important gig at the end of the season. After the last regular concert, the director brought out a rather difficult piece that at one point had a cadence that started on bottom line G and ended on low G. One look at the key signature, and one glance at the measure to make sure there weren't any skipped intervals, and it was apparent as I studied the piece for a minute or two as it was being passed around, that the motif was nothing more than a descending G minor scale. So when we got there, as the rest of the section was fighting notes, I just launched downward and nailed it. I have the recording. It turned out well.

I happen to agree with the previous posters so much, that I already years ago made some of my scale routines available for free downloading from my Yahoo-groups based free music project. All .pdf-files are printable in up to 1200dpi, a quality which cannot be presented here in .jpg. My idea is that scale work in the core range of each specific instrument shall happen along the circle of fifths. In the outer ranges it is more practical to work in chromatic increments. The project has a version for treble clef low brasses plus bass clef versions for euphonium/trombone, F-tuba, Eb-tuba, CC-tuba, and BBb-tuba. The scale modes presented are Major, the 3 Minors, Dorian, and Mixolydian.

The preface for the Major scales:
The first page, out of four, of Melodic Minor scales for CC-tuba:
The next page of the same scales:
If you want access to these scale routines, you may eMail me via the button to the right of here. PM will not work, as I need your mail address to invite you to my download-groups, which have no postings nor discussions.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

You are causing me a great deal of concern, James. I am able to make some sense out of your post on this topic, and not only does it make sense, but I agree with you. I'm a little worried about this. The posts from Todd & iiipopes are also very good. Certainly, depending on the key of the tuba in question, certain keys offer more awkward fingerings, but being able to be fluent in the key depends primarily on familiarity. Practicing and learning scales helps a great deal with this. I'm not certain I can claim equal fluency in all keys, since we play some of them so much more than others, but I am quite comfortable in all of them. And, yes, I can nail any of the scales you want, a minimum of two octaves, even with my gray hair.

tubashaman2 wrote:some people see different colors when they hear these keys

There's some cool music written by Torke, Scriabin, and even Rimsky-Korsakov - all of which are said to have/have had synaesthesia. Anyone on the forum that happens to see colors while listening to music (I have no idea the frequency of this condition) may want to look into some of these composers, they have works that will directly appeal to the colors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

You can choose to believe or not believe this, I have no idea one way or the other; it's pretty interesting, though.

tubashaman2 wrote:...... Now for the question: Has anyone started beginning brass on a scale other than Bb and did you have any results?

I don't honestly remember what key I started with in beginning brass.... mainly because that was 50 years ago! However... I strongly suspect that it was probably two flats since that was probably the most common key for beginning bands here in the US grade schools in those days. I started on an Eb tuba... which was also very common in those days. Please bear in mind that 50 years later, I am what I regard as a pretty fair amateur musician but nowhere near capable of playing in a major symphony. Do I practice scales? Nope. Do I need to practice scales to do the type of playing that I do? Nope. Would practicing scales make me a better player? Probably not. Now.... that being said... sometimes I wish that some of my professional training had been in music instead of engineering. I have a quintet gig on Christmas Eve that involves a piece that has a portion of it in three sharps. EGADS! I had to write in almost every fingering for twenty bars! (I'm primarily on BBb tuba now) I'll get it with a few practice runs but I don't think I'm going to sit and practice scales every day just for the few times a year that I run into this.

Still most comfortable with two or three flats!

TubaTinker wrote: Still most comfortable with two or three flats!

Two or three flats. Isn't that the universal key for all of the TubaChristmas arrangements? I don't know why those books have all those funny looking marks at the beginning of each tune. There's not reason for them, is there?

While learning all three forms of minor is probably required most places, knowing the Dorian, Mixolydian, and Blues scales will have at least as much real-world application - yet are almost never asked.

(And yes, I am aware of their similarities to the minor scales, but they are still different.)

no scale is harder than another, just less familiar.

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tubashaman2 wrote:However I am solid on all my majors and all the modes.....including aeolian.

Wow, you know aeolian and natural minor... you rock. I'll bet that in addition to major, you also know ionian!

tubashaman2 wrote:Ive only been on CC tuba for 2 years and F tuba not even a year and some of the keys like F# melodic minor for example I am not perfect yet.

Man my two tuba teachers would rip you apart. If you REALLY know your scales on one horn you should know them on ALL horns. Saying you have only been playing CC for 2 years and F for less than a year is a pretty poor excuse. My first tuba teacher required that I have a mastery of all four keys of tuba by the end of my Junior year in HIGH SCHOOL (I started playing tuba this very same year). He would give me tests during lessons where he would bring in one tuba of every key plus a euphonium and would make me do sight reading test on every tuba. For me, not knowing my scales was not an option and even though this method was very hard (first two weeks playing was on BBb then added Eb than a month later added CC than a month later F) I am very glad my teacher took this approach with me. BTW, here at the U of O to level up from first year to second year you must play all major scales two octaves in under 2 minutes. (not too hard) and to go from second year to third year you must play ALL the minor scales, two octaves in under two minutes.

tubahead wrote:

bububassboner wrote:My first tuba teacher required that I have a mastery of all four keys of tuba by the end of my Junior year in HIGH SCHOOL (I started playing tuba this very same year). He would give me tests during lessons where he would bring in one tuba of every key plus a euphonium and would make me do sight reading test on every tuba. For me, not knowing my scales was not an option and even though this method was very hard (first two weeks playing was on BBb then added Eb than a month later added CC than a month later F) I am very glad my teacher took this approach with me.

What? You had to learn all of the scales on all four tubas? Is it just me, or is this a weird way for lesson time to be spent in high school?

Maybe times have changed that much...

Again once you learn your scales playing them on any tuba shouldn't be a problem. It was my teachers thought that one should know all the "basic tuba stuff" before going to college. Four him that was all major and minor scales, mastery of all four keys of tuba, at least a four octave range, and a basic knowledge of the orchestral and wind band rep. I am grateful to have had a teacher that pushed me so hard to be as good at the tuba as possible and my only regret is that I didn't start taking lessons from him as a freshman.

bububassboner wrote:Again once you learn your scales playing them on any tuba shouldn't be a problem. .

Not if you are playing something like an Alex (or my MW2155R) where you have to relearn fingering patterns due to mandatory alternates. Once I relearned them, I was fine, but my first couple weeks I stumbled over even the most basic scales!

bububassboner wrote: at least a four octave range,

You do realize, that playing a four octave range does not mean playing 4 C's (that would be a three octave range) but it means playing 5 C's to cover a four full octaves. That is the equivalent of playing from pedal C to double high C - the middle of the treble clef, mid trumpet range. That is a lot to expect from a high school kid. Even when I was preparing for my conservatory auditions, I was only expected to comfortably play up to a high F (above middle C) to cover excerpts and solos, although I could squeak out the VW Ab. If a clean, reliable, in-tune true 4 octave range was required for all high school seniors, I doubt many colleges could have a tuba program.

Scales......

If you're a college student....an aspiring musical professional.....whether a music education student or a performance major, or theory, etc.....you should KNOW your instrument well. And part of knowing it, is to know scales. Learning scales are an integral part of learning how your instrument functions, exercising fingers, slotting your lips....it is ESSENTIAL.

If you know scales on a horn, you also can play them on any horn....of course, providing the time to learn the quirks of that horn (i.e. an Alex). Naturally though, learning the quirks is part of what I am referring to....which is that scales help you learn your horn as well as other techniques.

I do ask though if anyone has had a similar experience to this: While learning scales I worked hard and developed them but still struggled. There was then a period of a year when I didn't work too much on scales. After this period, I went back to work and found that they were much easier and came very naturally. So, this sorta leads me to believe that not only can scales help you learn your horn, but knowing your horn well, and the tuba in general (the partials, the general patterns that half steps and whole steps flow, and having a musical understand of the scale structure) will help your scales.

So I tend to agree....just learn the scales.....but then again, I also view scales not as a necessity....they're still just a tool. Who cares if you can't play a scale if you can knock the socks off of an audience...though, if you can play that well, I'd bet that you can work through every scale, even if you've never practiced them.

F# melodic minor..........3 sharps right? not so bad....

pierso20 wrote:If you know scales on a horn, you also can play them on any horn....of course, providing the time to learn the quirks of that horn (i.e. an Alex). Naturally though, learning the quirks is part of what I am referring to....which is that scales help you learn your horn as well as other techniques.

+1. You "get it" nicely, Brooke.

pierso20 wrote:F# melodic minor..........3 sharps right? not so bad....

No, not for the fixed notation, but there is more to Melodic Minor according to the 2nd half of the 2nd staf of this sample:



Major and Pure Minor have the same sequences of notes/fingerings, only the starting points are different. Harmonic Minor has this odd sequence of minor second - augmented second - minor second, which implies less familiar fingering patterns.

There is a theoretical model about building scales from tetrachords, which I was introduced to within my first year of playing brass, and which I find helpful. I have discussed this with some Americans, who also knew that way of thinking, but I don’t know whether tetrachords are used much in American teaching. They are not in general use here.

As much as I advocate fluency in all scale modes because of the abilities gained in doing on the fly analyses, as much my pragmatic teacher’s approach is somewhat more simplistic:

Most community band/orchestra amateurs would improve their reading skills and their overall technical facility, if they were at home in all 12 Major keys plus the chromatic scale.

Klaus

I always made my beginning tuba players learn B maj. as soon as they had learned Bb. "Hard keys" are only an issue because teachers let them be an issue early in the musical development. Bb is Bb. D is D. c# min is c# min. Pattern recognition. Nothing more, nothing less. Kids don't know the difference. If you let them think they are hard, then they'll be "hard" their entire playing lives. If you don't let that mindset take hold in the first place, they won't have to un-learn it later.

bububassboner wrote:My first tuba teacher required that I have a mastery of all four keys of tuba by the end of my Junior year in HIGH SCHOOL (I started playing tuba this very same year). He would give me tests during lessons where he would bring in one tuba of every key plus a euphonium and would make me do sight reading test on every tuba. For me, not knowing my scales was not an option and even though this method was very hard (first two weeks playing was on BBb then added Eb than a month later added CC than a month later F) I am very glad my teacher took this approach with me.

Gang, don't you just love it when college kids tell "I walked five miles to school in the snow uphill...both ways" stories to each other?

Here we are, trying to tell kids that music and musicianship based on good fundamentals is the most important thing, and now we hear that they are not one of the big boys unless they know all four keys of tuba by their junior year in high school. So, did you buy the tubas with money you earned? If not...your poor parents (and I mean that in all ways).

We know successful pros here who didn't play anything but Bb until their junior year in college. Arnold Jacobs got into Curtis with a borrowed Eb instrument that he did not know how to play in Eb. Roland Szentpali didn't even own a passable instrument until he was good enough to dazzle Roger Bobo, who arranged for him to obtain his first good F tuba (and F was all he had played until that time). Methinks that whatever it takes to be a top performer and successful pro isn't embodied in knowing all four keys of tuba by age 16, however much that might help.

Yes, knowing scales is good. And the scale patterns work the same no matter what key of tuba one is playing. Klaus is sensible in the realization that most hobbyists could greatly benefit from knowing their 12 major scales--within the schedule of a hobbyist probably as challenging as knowing 48 scales for a pro wannabe. Scales are the building blocks of reading skills and technique. Yes, yes, yes. But your post was still an "I walked uphill through the snow" sort of boast.

I have a feeling that our James might be applying a fairly tough standard to the definition of "knowing a scale". It isn't enough to know the fingering pattern, which we all practice by drumming our fingers on our steering wheels, etc. They also have to be in tune (with themselves), and even in tone and articulation. I'll bet that ANY high-school kid who can play all 48 scales won't sound like Gene Pokorny when he does, even if he has a World Class Sound. "Perfection" is a big word.

Rick "feeling better, thank you" Denney