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Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:35 am
by tubatom91
Well call me what you will but I'm fairly paranoid about being in tune. So I decided to cover all base's for pitch alteration. I think all of us are familiar with the stock pull rings on tuning slides and how helpful they are for on the fly tuning. But one thing has baffled me. I have a miraphone rotary valve tuba and I've noticed that the second valve tuning slide is very hard to move while playing anything other than an open bugle note. I know that I could just deal with it and adjust when done with a passage but I like to have options (and fun gadgets). Soo I took it upon myself to design and create somthing that would aid me. I came up with the idea of a vertical post that can be moved by the thumb while playing (Anything other than 5th valve of course). I highly doubt this is a totally original idea but I had alot of fun doing it
. I will post some pictures of my handy work. Keep in mind I had some help from my Grandpa. This is somthing he got to use his lathe for so he enjoyed it to
.
1st generation design:
This design worked fine but it was ugly and bulky. It looked a bit too industrial. So this is the point were I asked my Grandfather for advise/help
2nd generation (Final):
Tell me what you think. I think I'll trim down the bolt a little to take care of the extra length and replace the felt with somthing firmer later down the road.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:56 am
by ztuba
Is that a miraphone or a chinese copy??? You shouldn't need to ever touch the second valve slide... just grab that first valve slide and hug your horn... everything else is alternate fingerings using the fifth valve if my memory serves me correctly. That is a :OT of work to get results that you can get easier.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:21 am
by Mike-ICR
I understand the desire to fiddle with everything you can but any reasonably good tech could loosen up that slide very quickly.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:03 am
by jeopardymaster
Nice. For another solution, check out tubatinker's "projects" page - look for the 2nd valve slide "kicker" he put on my 186 BBb.
http://www.thevillagetinker.com/projects.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
My only complaint with that horn had been, with slides set for optimum tuning overall, the low 2-4 combinations (E and B natural) are sharp. And the 4th valve slide is placed poorly for quick pulls. Dan's design is effective and elegant as well as frugal, and spares my right thumb from tendonitis.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:08 am
by brianf
This looks like a hardware solution to a software problem. If you think in tune, you will play in tune.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:56 am
by MartyNeilan
In Tom's defense, there are numerous Rudy Meinl and Meinl Weston tubas that have second valve slide triggers worked by the left hand. This is particularly useful for the 2-4 combination, where many tubists often choose to not use the fifth valve and instead have to pull 4 or 2.
After doing something similar to Tom's setup on a Bohm and Meinl CC, I had a repairman add a long oval shaped brass loop to the top of the slide to replace the round ring. If I can find a pitcure of it out there, I will post it. I had the ring on my Mirafone 1290 rotated 90 degrees to allow easy pulling. My current CC actually has a factory pullrod to access the 2nd slide buried in the valve cluster, but I fortunately never have to use it.
I realize this is for a differnet model Mirafone, but there is a lot of good info below. I am quoting this poster anonymous to help keep them above the fray:
I don't care how much you pay for the horn No horn plays perfectly in tune. I am saddened to think that tubist are believing that one can play the instrument without pushing and pulling slides. EVERY tuba has intonation tendencies and how those tendencies work or don't work within a specific key will determine if we are pushing and pulling. Yes, one can "lip" the horn to correct these intonation problems. BUT, what happens when you lip the horn? YOU CHANGE THE SOUND!
Now I may be going out on a limb here, but do you really want to change the sound every time there is an intonation adjustment? I would think that one would sound like three to four tubist going up and down a scale..
The tendencies that I have found with the 1291 are as follows:
C in the staff to low C should be pretty close. Provided your using the correct mouthpiece. Please use a Euro shank!
E in the staff will be Low (like all Miraphones) use 1-2 and pull
G at three bottom of the staff is a bit low, (like all Miraphones)
Eb in the staff 2nd valve is low, use 2-3
Ab at the top of the staff is a bit high use 2-3 (I have combined Eb and Ab here to show that the 3rd slide of the horn will be out about 1 inch, that's the way it is designed) This will allow the 2-3 combo to work on Eb and Ab.
Db as on ANY horn is sharp (2-4) pull on 4th slide.
Yes you can use 523 BUT all these horns are designed to play with the least amount of valves down, 523 is not as friendly in most cases.
Low Gb 2-4 is sharp., out with the 4th slide, Here is where thre 523 can be used, but I still think it changes the sound of the horn. Pull a bit more than you did on Db.
Any 1-2 combo will be high (like on any horn) pull please.
D in the staff is flat on just about any C tuba in with the first.
I'm not saying that you will NEVER lip the instrument, We all must do that to a degree, BUT if we can get closer with a slide and limit the lipping the sound does not change as much AND we miss less notes.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:58 am
by MaryAnn
Well, you should have realized the TNFJ would respond the way it did.
Looks to me like you're a budding engineer, what with that propensity for constructing mechanical fixes to things. Don't worry, there are lots and lots of people out there who are just like you!! Some of them even play tuba.
MA
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:22 am
by TubaRay
My first reaction to the original post is to follow his instructions, so which instruction should I follow. I'll try both: You are "paranoid." You are "what you will."
Now to get a little more serious. It seems that the TNFJ has pounced on your post pretty hard. From my perspective, what works, works. If you are happy with it, be happy. How necessary is it? I don't really know. I will stand behind this statement, however: If you play better after having installed it, life is good.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:40 pm
by Uncle Buck
TubaRay wrote:I will stand behind this statement, however: If you play better after having installed it, life is good.
I'll just add one thing to that: Even if you don't play better, if you enjoyed the time you spent working on it, life is good.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:34 pm
by TubaRay
Uncle Buck wrote:TubaRay wrote:I will stand behind this statement, however: If you play better after having installed it, life is good.
I'll just add one thing to that: Even if you don't play better, if you enjoyed the time you spent working on it, life is good.
Agreed!
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:01 pm
by tbn.al
tubatom91 wrote: I have a miraphone rotary valve tuba and I've noticed that the second valve tuning slide is very hard to move while playing anything other than an open bugle note.
I too have a miraphone, ie. old miraphone, and the 2nd valve tubing is impossible to move while playing. You can't get up under the palm of your hand to get to it. To all the smug answers to the OP, I say until you've walked a mile in his shoes, lay off. 24 is so incredibly sharp I dare you to lip it down at FFF without changing the sound appreciably. Mine is almost 30 cents sharp. I asked the elephant to make me a pull like the one he made for his Alex but he is out of the making stuff business. It is a real problem on my horn, and not lippable. Granted it is only one note, the 24 B or C#, depending on the horn, but if it's a solo entrance at a loud volume you are screwed.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:12 pm
by tubatom91
I was definatly prepared for the TNFJ's reaction to this device. But I did have fun making it and I think it's a great conversation piece. Although this might not be neccesary on my particular horn it might be beneficial to any other horns that suffer from the same issue. Any rotary horn that has the second valve tuning slide mounted in this position seems to be near impossible to move if your four primary fingers are on the valve levers. I think my need/want to move my second valve tuning slide stems from an old Rudy Meinl that I once owned that was equipped with a second kicker. And it may also stem from a few years of playing on top action piston horns on which the 2nd slide is easily movable with your left hand.
Re: Call me paranoid
Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:56 pm
by Art Hovey
I have been pulling second and fourth valve slides for many years. When going from 4 to 2+4 I don't want to have to make a face change to get both pitches right, so I pull the 2nd slide. When going from any fingering that involves the 2nd valve to a 2-4 combination, it makes more sense to pull the 4th slide. (I was pleased to see Mr, Pokorny using that same trick a couple of years ago.)
It helps to connect a small bungee cord to pull the 2nd slide back in; that makes things work better on the fly.
True, a 5th valve might make those pulls unnecessary, but I have chosen not to go that route.