Eb piston

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:41 pm

OK, I'm not asking "what Eb tuba do you like" but just what Eb tubas (4/4) have short throw pistons, that a small hand would be able to play.
I think I would prefer 3+1 but have never tried one. My top 4-valve euph is impossible for me to play one-handed; I have to reach over and play 4th with my left hand. I don't want to get stuck with this in a tuba (which is why so far I've had rotaries.)

So far the only piston tuba I've played that seemed like I could maybe get used to, was a compensating BBb that had very short throw pistons and great big buttons. I don't remember what kind....Wilson maybe? it was a used military (?) tuba that someone her in town picked up. I could not reach the pistons on the Yamaha/Weril F/CC tubas.

MA

Roger Lewis · Post by **Roger Lewis** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:03 pm

Why is it you want to go away from rotary valves? If it is due to playability issues I'd wait until the new Miraphone Eb comes out next year - the "Norwegian Star" . I found this to be a wonderful horn with great playability in a 5 valve rotary Eb.

Just wondering.

Erin · Post by **Erin** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:42 pm

I play a Yamaha YEB-321. It's not 3+1, but my hands are fairly small and it suits me fine. (Although if you can't reach the 4th valve on your euphonium, your hands might be smaller than mine.)

JB · Post by JB » Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:16 pm

Erin wrote:I play a Yamaha YEB-321. It's not 3+1, but my hands are fairly small and it suits me fine. (Although if you can't reach the 4th valve on your euphonium, your hands might be smaller than mine.)

Ever play it with your head in the bell???

(Hah? Apologies to all for the inside joke...)

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:19 pm

Roger Lewis wrote:Why is it you want to go away from rotary valves? If it is due to playability issues I'd wait until the new Miraphone Eb comes out next year - the "Norwegian Star" . I found this to be a wonderful horn with great playability in a 5 valve rotary Eb.

Just wondering.

Because I need to have a really strong low register, and while I can play the low notes on my F rotary, they simply are not as stong as I need them to be, and they aren't improving at any incredible rate. So I was considering pistons. I've been using my 'fone 184 CC on the Eb part in brass band, and it is ok but a lot of the music is "obviously" designed for Eb tuba fingerings. If I get a 4/4 Eb it might do me for all my playing and work better than the 184 is now.

MA

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:23 pm

Roger Lewis wrote:Why is it you want to go away from rotary valves? If it is due to playability issues I'd wait until the new Miraphone Eb comes out next year - the "Norwegian Star" . I found this to be a wonderful horn with great playability in a 5 valve rotary Eb.

Just wondering.

Because I need to have a really strong low register, and while I can play the low notes on my F rotary, they simply are not as stong as I need them to be, and they aren't improving at any incredible rate. So I was considering pistons. I've been using my 'fone 184 CC on the Eb part in brass band, and it is ok but a lot of the music is "obviously" designed for Eb tuba fingerings. If I get a 4/4 Eb it might do me for all my playing and work better than the 184 is now.

MA

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:27 pm

Erin wrote:I play a Yamaha YEB-321. It's not 3+1, but my hands are fairly small and it suits me fine. (Although if you can't reach the 4th valve on your euphonium, your hands might be smaller than mine.)

From the tip of my longest finger down to the base of my palm is 6 1/2".
Across the knuckles is 2 5/8". Pretty small.

MA

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:18 pm

MaryAnn wrote: Because I need to have a really strong low register MA

Well... one thing's for certain... you certainly should stay away from Mirafone 183 (Eb) if you need a strong low register. At least that's how me 'n my 183 get along. Great in the higher range but really stinky below C under the staff.

How is the low end on your Mirafone 184 (CC)? I just added one to my 'for sale' list and may consider converting it to a BBb if the low end is OK. I haven't played it yet.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:35 pm

PhilW. wrote:
MaryAnn wrote:Because I need to have a really strong low register, and while I can play the low notes on my F rotary, they simply are not as stong as I need them to be, and they aren't improving at any incredible rate. So I was considering pistons.
MA
I'm pretty sure that rotary valves don't have any detrimental effect on a horn's playing characteristics, in the low or the high range.

Maybe you should try the Besson 983. That was the sweetest sounding Eb I've ever played.

I have a Besson 983 (that I'm taking to rehearsal tonight) and although I love it, I wouldn't think that it would work well for someone with smaller hands. The valve stroke is not any longer than most, but because of the long compensating pistons it has a heavier valve feel. I also wouldn't describe the valves as close together. I have medium sized hands, at least for a 6' 5" 230lb person, and I find my pinky tiring after a long rehearsal or concert.

The low range is like the low range on most bass tubas. There are some notes that come out easier than others. The 4th valve notes, or any combination with the 4th valve take some getting used to. The pedal Eb and below are easy to play relative to other Eb's I have tried, but I still have to concentrate on not over blowing.

Philip Jensen · Post by **Philip Jensen** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:29 am

On my recent trip to Dillon's I played a Meinl Weston 4 rotor Eb. Very free blowing, very open in the low register. I thought it was more open than the Besson 983.

I don't know what this horn is seeing as how it is not in their current brochure. I think it is just a rotary version of the 2141.

Typically, everything below A natural below the staff was sharp and required slide pulling and/or alternate fingerings. I didn't try the false tones. Pedals were great.

Too broad a sound for me, the Besson too for that matter. They both sounded great. I really like the way the MW blew - very easy. I'm looking for something brighter though, something 3/4 size with a 15-16 in. bell.

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:26 am

TubaTinker wrote:
MaryAnn wrote: Because I need to have a really strong low register MA
How is the low end on your Mirafone 184 (CC)? I just added one to my 'for sale' list and may consider converting it to a BBb if the low end is OK. I haven't played it yet.

The 184 is spectacular in the low end...very open. I'd expect the below-the-staff G to be stuffy like that same place is on F rotaries, but it is not. That note just honks! But I don't know why you'd want to convert a perfectly good CC to a BBb!

MA

Jay Bertolet · Post by **Jay Bertolet** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:42 am

I don't know Mary Ann, my hands aren't all that different from yours. My overall length (base of palm to tip of longest finger) is just over 7". Width across the knuckles is just under 3.5". I think it depends on what kind of horn you want in determining what horns to look at. If you go with a 3+1 compensator, I would think the Besson 981/982 would work just fine for you, though they are a little heavy and have a very large bell. For someone of your petite stature, the horn may be a bit too top heavy for you to handle easily. Otherwise, it sounds like that horn fits your playing criteria very well.

You know I'm a big fan of the Willson Eb. I would guess that the dimensions you cited wouldn't preclude you from using that horn. What would worry me is how far you can extend your thumb to operate the 5th valve. If your hand is truly small, any 5 valve horn may offer a challenge to you unless the 5th is left hand operated. This might rule out all non-compensating horns altogether and make the decision process much easier.

I personally don't care for the 983 much. It's a nice solo horn but I think it lacks the depth of sound to really be effective in larger ensembles. I think Roger gave you some good advice about the Norwegian Star. That is a horn I'm kinda looking for to see if it's as good as the reports.

As always, the advice boils down to the predictable: Get Thee to a Tuba Retailer!

MaryAnn · Post by **MaryAnn** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:16 am

Thanks, Jay.

My MO that has worked in the past is to figure based on ergonomics and "sound type" what is likely to work....and then wait for a decent used one to show up. I may not get the "perfect tuba" but I seem to do ok. I'd be happy with what I have except that this year the majority of my playing is quintet and brass band, and I think a good solid Eb might work better than the switching back and forth I'm doing now between the CC and the F. And one is easier to carry around than two....

The weight of the 981 would not be a problem if I could sit it on the chair like I do my 184. Of course I'm going to have to try one to see about that, first. Leadpipes can be moved.

The width of one's palm has a lot to do with the "spread" needed to reach pistons. I suppose I can put huge finger buttons on anything, but continued off-center piston plunging can wear out the cylinders. So far I haven't had any reach problems with either of my 5-valve rotaries, but don't know how that would work if 4 of the valves were pistons.

Ideally I'd find a 5-valve Eb rotary that was as open as the little 3-valve McClellan Eb piston I bought from Lee Stofer (but which is 3/4 size and too out-of-tune for me to deal with.) I suppose I shouldn't rule out an older 3-valve Eb piston that has good false tones, but the older ones all seem to have insurmountable (for me) intonation problems.

MA

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Eb piston

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