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Questions:

Do any of you repair gurus offer this as a finish? Do you sand/bead blast or do you brush in one direction with some type of abasive (steel wool, scotch brite™) or some super secret technique you can't talk about? Can this be done by your average guy in his basement or should this sort of thing be left to the professionals?

One of the larger flea-bay dealers tried that - brushed down a few baritone horns for a sort of antique look, sometimes with colored lacquer if I remember right. I haven't noticed any recently, nor anything else by that dealer for that matter, so I can't dredge up a picture right now, but it ends up looking a lot like common brass hardware - door knobs, drawer pulls, stuff like that. I'm sure it covers up a multitude of sins, so to speak, so it might be a cheap solution for a badly scratched horn, and if you end up deciding to make the tuba into a lamp in the end, the finish will be just right.

I've done it and I've seen it done. I can't imagine the minute amount of material being removed would be any different than adding plating, lacquer or glass beading. An inexperienced or poorly trained tech could probably buff off the same amount. I'm not saying it's a good idea, just that it's not really that bad. I think the best example I've seen was glass beaded with bright brass accents and lacquered (just like a satin silver horn without the silver). I've used scratch brushes and steel wool (customer requests) to cover imperfections. Every horn came out looking alright. Not great but not bad.

Donn wrote:One of the larger flea-bay dealers tried that - brushed down a few baritone horns for a sort of antique look, sometimes with colored lacquer if I remember right. I haven't noticed any recently, nor anything else by that dealer for that matter, so I can't dredge up a picture right now, but it ends up looking a lot like common brass hardware - door knobs, drawer pulls, stuff like that. I'm sure it covers up a multitude of sins, so to speak, so it might be a cheap solution for a badly scratched horn, and if you end up deciding to make the tuba into a lamp in the end, the finish will be just right.

I have seen this finish as well and that is the finish I am looking for. I don't know if something is done to the brass before they spray it or not. Covering up a multitude of sins is the reason I am thinking about having something like this done to the Marzan. Even if my horn was flawless, I still like that finish better than any other finish I have seen on a horn. I figured it may remove a small amount of metal, but not enough to make part of the horn thin enough to cause problems (but, as usual, I could be wrong). Every time I see one of those pre silver plated horns from Dan Oberloh's pictures I wish someone would just have the thing sprayed as is just so I can see what it will look like. If anyone is familiar with a faux satin or brushed fininsh that is just applied to the horn I am interested in hearing about that as well.

bigpapajon wrote:I ran this by Dan Oberloh not even a month ago. Here was his response:

Satin finish is not advisable on such an instrument as it can cause a lot of problems with the thin brass (distortion). It can also seriously impact the resonance. I will only refinish them in a bright brass or silver.

What was the instrument?

Donn wrote: so I can't dredge up a picture right now

OK, here you go:
Complete with cheesy antique lacquer. From a quick look at some of their
hundreds of instruments, they (Leisure-time) apply this scour finish only along with the cheesy antique lacquer.

(edit: lacquer? Maybe not? Looks like the antique effect might be dark spray paint.)

I figured it may remove a small amount of metal, but not enough to make part of the horn thin enough to cause problems

This scouring doesn't remove so much metal, it's the buffing later to polish it back up after the scouring.

I think metallic spray paint would be less labor intensive, and a satin finish would also be an option there, but bloke would know more about this.

I got some paint remover around here somewhere....I think it may be time to polish up a spot to remove the tarnish and then hit it with a satin lacquer just to see what it will look like. If anyone has done this, let me know if it looks bad so I won't waste my time.

Here's the problem with a brushed or satin finish on a brass tuba: The brass will oxidize and turn brown. If you don't want that, then polishing it will leave a lot of polishing schmutz in the texture, and it will take a lot to get it cleaned up. Or, you can put a clear finish on it. But all lacquer finishes eventually wear off, leaving bare spots. On a polished tuba, you can polish the bare spots easily enough. The satin will make that more difficult.

A satin silver tuba is another matter. The polishes that remove silver tarnish are in my experience easier to clean off, and many work chemically and don't leave much schmutz. Even then, getting all the black stuff off a satin silver tuba is a major activity.

Scotchbrite is the standard stuff for applying a brushed texture to aluminum or brass. It does not leave steel fragments as does steel wool, and it's easier to use than sandpaper. But it is indeed like sanding your tuba.

In summary, it may cover past sins, but it may make it much more difficult to cover future sins. Personally, the normal brown patina of a raw brass tuba is as likely to cover past sins as an applied texture, and it's a lot easier to live with.

Rick "who thinks you'd be better off with a thin metallic automotive paint" Denney

Donn wrote:

Donn wrote: so I can't dredge up a picture right now

OK, here you go:

This is the 1st time I've seen one like that.

I was thinking more like this:

Johannes Mader wrote:What about this...



http://www.inderbinen.com/Page_e/Euphonium_e.html

I played the Inderbinen euphonium in Frankfurt last year.
I was very much impressed with the beatiful sound and ease of playing ( I own a besson prestige myself)
The instrument feeled not lacquered at all, so I assume the color has come from hammering, heating and cooling the horn during manufacture.
This is how I expect raw brass looks without buffing and lacquering.

Johannes, you should try it in Frankfurt this year.

Edwards offers that finish on their trombones:

I owned a Satin Silver King 2341 that was a real pain in the rear to keep clean. When it was clean, it looked great, but I would have rather spent all of that time practicing.

Based upon my experience with that finish, I will never own another.

Liberty Mo wrote:I owned a Satin Silver King 2341 that was a real pain in the rear to keep clean. When it was clean, it looked great, but I would have rather spent all of that time practicing.

Silver tarnish is mysterious, maybe depends partly on environmental factors? I have a 1926 Evette saxophone with an excellent satin silver finish, and it has held up pretty well - in fact, since I've never tried to clean it, I'm wondering how you go about it? Just the same as a bright finish, or do you have to omit some of the rubbing to avoid polishing the finish off the tops of the bumps?

Junkyardslug wrote:I belive if you want a horn to look like the photo you posted of Dan Oberlon's work you want Satin Gold plate

JYS

Heh, heh. That sounds like the best idea I've heard so far.

Rick "bring your checkbook" Denney

Hello,
If Dave(Bandmaster) is reading this post, perhaps he will post a big picture of his Satin Gold Conn Sousaphone. Beautiful horn.
Dave "Saw it at TubaChristmas, DisneyLand"Hayami

Donn wrote:

Liberty Mo wrote:I owned a Satin Silver King 2341 that was a real pain in the rear to keep clean. When it was clean, it looked great, but I would have rather spent all of that time practicing.

Silver tarnish is mysterious, maybe depends partly on environmental factors? I have a 1926 Evette saxophone with an excellent satin silver finish, and it has held up pretty well - in fact, since I've never tried to clean it, I'm wondering how you go about it? Just the same as a bright finish, or do you have to omit some of the rubbing to avoid polishing the finish off the tops of the bumps?

I invested in a few tubs of Wright's Silver Cream, a bag of cloth t-shirt rags, and a lot of elbow grease. I didn't rub all that hard, and the t-shirt and Wrights were not abrasive. I would also dampen the shirt before putting the Wrights on. The trick was not to use too much cream or it would cake on the horn. A light film would be left after I was done, and I just wiped it off using a damp shirt. It worked well, but this was once a month process.

I kept the horn in its case and away from any vents, moisture, fireplace, etc. It still built up tarnish. You just had to stay on top of it.

Interestingly enough, I purchased that horn on Ebay for a real steal. I think the fact that seller didnt take the time to polish it, really hurt his price. That was such a great playing tuba, but the cosmetic maintenance really detracted from it. I am in the market for a replacement....in lacquer.

Before and after:

I've scratch-buffed a few trumpets and bugles. While sexy, it would be very labor intensive to do on a tuba, and I would flat-out turn the work away. Also, on a rare horn like a Marzan, I would be EXTREMELY reticent to mess with it in any manner not designed to add life to it. Really dude, having seen your very nice instrument, it has excellent character and I'd leave it alone. Remember, to some extent, tarnish protects.

One other thing, I'm also, as a matter of course, very reluctant to refinish any brass instrument which hasn't been completely de-dented and stripped. It's just my way. Were that the case, you could satin-finish it and lacquer it that way - Conn offers that finish on their 5X-J tubas. I don't like it, but you may.

If you have no lacquer, feel free to brasso it, but again - I like your Marzan

J.c.S.

Yes, the goal for this horn after having the dents removed and other corrective actions is to have it relacquered. I was just wondering how this type of finish is done. Personally, I was hoping for some non destructive method. Satin brass is just as appealing to me as the brushed look. I was going to test a small spot on the horn by polishing it and using a rattle can of clear satin lacquer on the spot. I would just remove the lacquer from the test spot after I saw the results unless I liked it so much I decided to to a larger piece (like the entire bell) as a temporary move, then have the entire horn done that way when the money and time is right.

In that case there's a matte finish lacquer we use for touching up saxes with painted brush finishes (blech!). I'll see if I can get you the maker and # of that - we buy it from the hobby shop

J.c.

Wasn't Yamaha doing some sort of strange finish on their Xeno trumpets? Don't know if it was plating or a painted finish.