TubeNet

Now this is probably an annoying thread to some, but I'm going to post anyway; this is important to me.

The other day, I picked up a 191 BBb and started playing away;
I hadn't even touched a Bb in close to a year.

It sounded so sweet to me; it was closer tomy mind's ideal contrabass soundthan any CC I've played so far. Maybe I'm playing the wrong CCs... Maybe I just like BBb horns more.
I'm torn...
Eventually, >>(if I feel I am able to play well enough)<< I want to try and earn an orchestra chair...nothing extraordinary though.
BBb s seem pretty rare in modern US orchestras and MANY big name university professors are CC/F advocates.


What should I do?
Stick with the CC/F combo or switch over to BBb/F or BBb/Eb?

Maybe I should just move over to Europe

Depends on the type of orchestra. Any local orchestra's will probably not care too much, but when you start moving up the ladder it could matter....of course, then again, if you play the socks off of your horn and it's the sound they want, that's more important.

What CC's have you played?

Have you played extensively on one? I would say that if it has been a while since playing consistently, then even trying a CC as comparison would be doing yourself a disservice. It would require a bit more time to really judge how a CC and BBb would compare.

I will say that many do believe that the BBb boys have a "woofier" (?) sorta sound...that is, a bit more broad etc. The CC horns are a bit more precise (or maybe articulate?) which American orchestra's like because it fits in with their sound concept.

Do you regularly play CC and tried the BBb?

I think the real thing you should worry more about is your skill to eventually get that orchestral chair you want and worry about equipment later. Work a year or two on what key you have and then maybe make a conscious decision on what you want.

You're going to get a LOT of interesting responses from people. Again, I tend to think "hone your skills". And then there's a personal preference. If you TRULY....TRULY prefer the BBb sound over the CC sound, then pick what you enjoy.

Good luck!

To me, the bottom line is the sound (really, it's the playability of the horn which entails sound, but also includes intonation, etc.). If you like the 191 after you have given it a play for at least a few days so much that you want to buy it, then buy it. To me, that's the bottom line. Not the pitch of the horn. There are many aspects of playing that a student won't understand at first, but later appreciate (like "Do these etudes" or "Do these scales"), but I don't think CC/BBb is one of them.

Also, I believe some here on TubeNet will recommend that you keeping searching around for your new horn and that you might find a C horn you like even better than the 191.

Whichever way you go, good luck on your search and let us know what you results are with copious amounts of bugle pornography!

To clear this up...
I played on BBb up untill the end high school and have been on CC for about a year (majority of it spent on a piggy).
I ONLY own an F right now but have access to contrabass horns.

Heck... I should buy BBb, CC, Eb, F, G, and D horns so I never have to choose

k001k47 wrote:To clear this up...
I played on BBb up untill the end high school and have been on CC for about a year (majority of it spent on a piggy).
I ONLY own an F right now but have access to contrabass horns.

Heck... I should buy BBb, CC, Eb, F, G, and D horns so I never have to choose

Now you're talkin'! While you're at it, don't forget euphoniums in Ab, Bb, and C ...

k001k47 wrote:To clear this up...
I played on BBb up untill the end high school and have been on CC for about a year (majority of it spent on a piggy).
I ONLY own an F right now but have access to contrabass horns.

Heck... I should buy BBb, CC, Eb, F, G, and D horns so I never have to choose

I would probably stick with the CC for now. If all you've played is a piggy for reference and only a few CC horns, I suggest making a fun trip to a store and giving all sorts of horns a try. I will say that "about a year" isn't quite enough yet to really get the feel for a new keyed horn. Keep going on that and eventually you can make a self-education decision on what sound your looking for and what horns give it.

Bob1062 wrote:
One of my favorite quotes on here-

Haugan wrote:It seems silly to me to shun a horn for it's "BBb ness" when what you are trying to achieve is a bigger more BBb-like sound.

That is one great quote.

pierso20 wrote:
I would probably stick with the CC for now. If all you've played is a piggy for reference and only a few CC horns, I suggest making a fun trip to a store and giving all sorts of horns a try. I will say that "about a year" isn't quite enough yet to really get the feel for a new keyed horn. Keep going on that and eventually you can make a self-education decision on what sound your looking for and what horns give it.

Good advice.
I have had alot of face time with many a CCs at conventions but it's not enough to make a valid descision...
Maybe I'm looking for a bigger piston CC sound...the 1291 sounds great to my ear. (I'm starting to think I'm a miraphone addict )

k001k47 wrote:

Bob1062 wrote:
One of my favorite quotes on here-

Haugan wrote:It seems silly to me to shun a horn for it's "BBb ness" when what you are trying to achieve is a bigger more BBb-like sound.

That is one great quote.

pierso20 wrote:
I would probably stick with the CC for now. If all you've played is a piggy for reference and only a few CC horns, I suggest making a fun trip to a store and giving all sorts of horns a try. I will say that "about a year" isn't quite enough yet to really get the feel for a new keyed horn. Keep going on that and eventually you can make a self-education decision on what sound your looking for and what horns give it.

Good advice.
I have had alot of face time with many a CCs at conventions but it's not enough to make a valid descision...
Maybe I'm looking for a bigger piston CC sound...the 1291 sounds great to my ear. (I'm starting to think I'm a miraphone addict )

Something to consider as well is that the BBb you liked was a rotary horn and you likely played many piston CC's. So maybe that'll have an impact as well. Good luck with it all!

(If I was selling my 1290, you'd probably like that...it's a great horn but an enormous bell and wow type of resonance.....very cool..BUT, not selling for a little while)

k001k47 wrote:Heck... I should buy BBb, CC, Eb, F, G, and D horns so I never have to choose

Not true. . . If you do that, you have to choose what key to play every single day! Sometimes, several times a day...

.

On another day on TubeNet, we got into a discussion about prices of horns and which one would be best to buy. Here is is:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25155&p=217397&hili ... on#p217397" target="_blank

In the discussion, the point of 'which horn is best for an audition?" came up. In the discussion, some thought that a player who came into an audition with a 186 or other 'garden variety' horn- BBb or CC- was at a disadvantage.

My only advice for an audition I am qualified to give is one word and an exclamation mark: "Prepare!" However, I asked, "Would a prepared, metronomed-tempoed, melodic-dynamiced player of a 186 be at a disadvantage in an audition with similar players who had 'name' high end horns?" The discussion lead to the answer 'yes'.

What do people think now?

A bit tangential, but here goes. I saw that quip about multiple euphonia. I know there are a few out in 'C' now but have never laid eyes on one, let alone lips. I have tried a French tuba in C but expect it isn't comparable. Any experiences out there? Care to comment?

From a perspective of a former professional on another instrument, I never knew or cared about what key tuba the tuba player was playing. I have a vague memory of hearing something about C tubas at one time. But the whole concept of CC/BBb is lost to everyone else in the orchestra/band. They don't know and don't care. Just sound good on what you are playing and they will be very satisfied.

In the Horn world we had the whole geyer vs. kruspe wrap thing going on, but no body else in the orchestra cared. We only had to fit in with the other horn players, which is the only reason to have one particular wrap horn. On tuba you have no other tuba player to blend with, so I would think it would make it even less an issue as to what key tuba you played.

The only thing you might have to worry about is, "looking the part". If you walk in with a beat to hell or student looking horn, even if you sound great the perception won't be favorable. Hell I know I am guilty of it. I still look at the European orchestra's and see a top loader tuba being played and I think it "looks" amateurish. Even though I know otherwise.

The Big Ben wrote:My only advice for an audition I am qualified to give is one word and an exclamation mark: "Prepare!" However, I asked, "Would a prepared, metronomed-tempoed, melodic-dynamiced player of a 186 be at a disadvantage in an audition with similar players who had 'name' high end horns?" The discussion lead to the answer 'yes'.

What do people think now?

I'm wondering what tuba(s) the Philadelphia audition was won on, and if she had played the snot out of a 186 if she'd still have the job.

MA

k001k47 wrote: I'm torn...
Eventually, (if I feel I am able to play well enough) I want to try and earn an orchestra chair...nothing extraordinary though.

That is an extraordinary goal, even in many regional orchestras, and requires extraordinary dedication. Don't fool yourself.

k001k47 wrote:BBb s seem pretty rare in modern US orchestras and MANY big name university professors are CC/F advocates.

What should I do?
Stick with the CC/F combo or switch over to BBb/F or BBb/Eb?

Maybe I should just move over to Europe

Considering the goal you have set:

At the present time, I cannot think of one tuba player in a major American orchestra who is playing a BBb tuba as the main instrument. Don't re-invent the wheel.

There is prejudice against BBb tuba by people who are in a position to affect acheiving your goal and who consider themselves "knowledgeable." That same prejudice exists in Europe against the CC tuba. Odds are you won't end up in a European orchestra without an unbelievable amount of luck to go along with everything else.

Eb/F is not nearly as big a consideration in the US as it used to be, thanks in large part, to Oystein Baadsvick. Not even John Fletcher has had the impact Oystein has made. Besides, you can walk into an audition with a Norwegian Star and no one can tell if it is an F or an Eb (except a tuba player watching you fingers).

I cannot tell the future but judging from what we see and considering the goal you set, play CC tuba.

MaryAnn wrote:I'm wondering what tuba(s) the Philadelphia audition was won on, and if she had played the snot out of a 186 if she'd still have the job.

MA,
You, of all people, know that audition prelims are often screened, and finals are often series with the orchestra. Then you have the whole period of tenure probation.

So does it matter WHAT you use? No. Does it matter HOW you sound and HOW WELL you play with others? Yup!

i regret switching to CC. my professor back then told me that i should stick with the BBb because i was getting a great sound on it and could play anything on the BBb. but i switched anyways because they were a few proffesionals BBb models tuba at that time. also i did not want to be the only BBb tuba player in my college. now that there some much to choose from.

i still play a CC tuba because i love my horn. but if i ever decide to purchase a new one, then i would give a BBb tuba a chance.

you have to choose a horn that works well for you regardless of the pitch. James jenkins is an excellent example that comes to my mind right now. i am sure there are others out there that play a BBb tuba in a professional setting.

i regret switching to CC. my professor back then told me that i should stick with the BBb because i was getting a great sound on it and could play anything on the BBb. but i switched anyways because they were a few proffesionals BBb models tuba at that time. also i did not want to be the only BBb tuba player in my college. now that there some much to choose from.

i still play a CC tuba because i love my horn. but if i ever decide to purchase a new one, then i would give a BBb tuba a chance.

you have to choose a horn that works well for you regardless of the pitch. James jenkins is an excellent example that comes to my mind right now. i am sure there are others out there that play a BBb tuba in a professional setting.

Alex C wrote: Besides, you can walk into an audition with a Norwegian Star and no one can tell if it is an F or an Eb (except a tuba player watching you fingers).

I have to admit, I couldn't tell you by looking if a particular tuba is in CC or BBb unless it is one of those tubas that has it own distinctive look that is instantly identifiable. I really don't think many MD's know these things unless they themselves where tuba players.

The Big Ben wrote:What do people think now?

It doesn't matter what you play, you will still have to be the most accurate, musical and compelling performer there that day to advance.

But I have this friend. He's a sub in a major professional orchestra, and he plays the 186 CC that he bought new in the 70's. I suspect there are few tuba players who are closer to their instruments, or who have higher regard for their instruments. But he felt that tuba was showing its limits when he subbed with his symphony orchestra, and a while back bought a bigger tuba to use for those circumstances. No surprise: The other musicians noticed the difference (in an extremely complimentary way).

So, I suspect that instrument choice could make some difference between Outstanding Musician A and Outstanding Musician B, assuming the accuracy, musicianship, and compelling performance hits the mark with both. Note that the standard of sound may be different behind the screen than in the full orchestra, but that subject has already been beaten to death. By my observation, it's a subject usually reserved for those folks who weren't quite as compelling in the musician department.

Different story, closer to the topic at hand: Last year, I had performances with two different groups on the same weekend. I had been asked to sub in the second group for a Sunday concert of mostly orchestral transcriptions, and had not had as much time for preparation as I usually have. So, I showed up early for the concert on Saturday with my regular group, and spent some time working through the excerpts for the second group while I had the room to myself. Playing it in that large room really helped me to cover a lot of ground quickly, sound-wise.

My regular conductor, a professional tuba player, showed up early and was listening to me while he was setting up his own stuff. He commented that I was getting a "C tuba orchestra" sound on those excerpts. That was using a enormous, typically vast Bb Holton 345. If ever there was a tuba that would get a woofy Bb sound, it would be that one. What elicited the (greatly appreciated) compliment? I would like to think that my tone concept leans in the orchestral direction, and my selection of mouthpiece, articulation style, etc., supports that concept, within the limits of my abilities, which my conductor knows well. At the Sunday performance, one of the ex-professional trombone players in that group looked back at the two of us and told us we sounded like a section of four. (I don't know if that was a compliment, but I took it as one.)

I still believe that the biggest difference between Bb and C tubas is their players.

(Another story: When I joined my main group, I brought the York Master to my first rehearsal. After the rehearsal--the same professional tuba player--asked me if it was a C or a Bb. I'm sure his confusion was not based on my meager abilities, but on the fact that they look almost identical, even to the trained eye, unless the specific instrument model is recognized.)

Paul Haugan's quote is a good one. But what would you expect from the founding member of the Sousaphone Artist's Preservation Society?

Rick "who does notice the increased agility of some C tubas" Denney