TubeNet

I was wondering if anyone have any information on the history of production of this horns. The only thing i know that my grandpa purchased this horn back in 1960's or 70's from a gentleman who used to purchase large quantities of instruments directly from Kruspe. This horn was custom made for that person, which was not unusual at that time. My grandpa told me that rotary valves were made from special alloy, to me it looks reddish. I used to play this horn in churches but recently did not use it much.
The only info I fount that Kruspe is known for its french horns, but haven't seen any baritones.
Any thoughts?

http://www.edkruspe.de/

Pre-WWII catalogue etching:



Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

Ed.: The old etching didn’t come up when opening this thread reading the post by Klangstückprobleme, but right-clicking it made it available in a new window.

Btw.: The title of the photo in the OP has something about Ukraine in it. I wonder about that, because the valve mechanism looks very old fashioned for a German post-WWII instrument. My galleries don’t have photos of Kruspe oval Baritöne, so I cannot compare. I certainly would like a thorough documentation of the instrument in the OP, including readable shots of the engraving.

Back in 1988 I was visiting the music store of a friend up in Lancaster, CA (the high desert north of L.A.) and he took to a house out in the middle of nowhere to visit this old guy he knew. I was in shock when I saw all the stuff this guy had hanging on the walls and on shelves all over his house and in a shed in the back yard. Hundreds of old brass instruments everywhere. The old guy said he used to sub in the L.A. Phil on french horn and that he played all the brass instruments. He showed me the silver Kruspe french horn he said the he overhauled himself and that he played when he subbed. He let me play his old Kruspe oval euphonium that looked a lot like the one in the photo above and his Kruspe BBb rotorary valve tuba. Both played pretty well for old beasts. All were over 90 years old at the time but still in great shape. He spent almost an hour showing me around and letting me see his collection of horns. He had two civil war backfire basses hanging on the walls in his garage, old sousaphones and baritones on the shelves in a shed in the back yard, and countless other horns of all descriptions lying around everywhere. My friend told me a little while back that the old guy passed away and his wife just sold all the stuff to the first guy that came along. I wish I had been that guy!

imperialbari wrote: Btw.: The title of the photo in the OP has something about Ukraine in it. I wonder about that, because the valve mechanism looks very old fashioned for a German post-WWII instrument. My galleries don’t have photos of Kruspe oval Baritöne, so I cannot compare. I certainly would like a thorough documentation of the instrument in the OP, including readable shots of the engraving.

I spoke with my dad to get this story straight since my grandpa passed away back in the 1980's. My grandpa purchased this horn used in 1958 or 1960 in Eastern Europe from the family of the person (after he died) that used to buy large quantities of horns from Kruspe for military brass orchestras in Eastern Europe. I don't have digital camera with me now, but in a week I'll be able to post pictures of engraving.

Bandmaster wrote:Back in 1988 I was visiting the music store of a friend up in Lancaster, CA (the high desert north of L.A.)

Is that Scimonetti Band & Orchestra Inc.? If so, I also visited that store few years ago. Haven't met Jim, but they had tones of instruments.

BTW, I don't live far from you.

sugawi wrote:

Bandmaster wrote:Back in 1988 I was visiting the music store of a friend up in Lancaster, CA (the high desert north of L.A.)

Is that Scimonetti Band & Orchestra Inc.? If so, I also visited that store few years ago. Haven't met Jim, but they had tones of instruments.

BTW, I don't live far from you.

Nope, it was Mario's Music. He is a tuba player and percussionist. He catered to schools and bought and sold used instruments to and from the schools. When I was running my youth band in the 80's and 90's I was buying used percussion parts from him, lug housings and rims, to keep my drum section happy. He had 40 foot trailer full of drum parts, so you could find anything you needed. He also rebuilt drums and sousaphones for resale. I almost bought a set of 4 silver sousaphones that he had just play conditioned, but he sold them a couple weeks before I could get the money. We used to talk about tubas alot so he took me out to the old guys house for some fun.

Jeopardymaster, near Cincinnati has a Kruspe F tuba. He'll probably spot this post and respond.

Here some shots of engraving that I took with my camera phone untill I get hold of better camera...

By documentation I mean blueprint-type shots of front and back (the front already is there), clear shots of details like valve transmission and stays, plus readable shots of the engravings.

Despite the low resolution the Kruspe engraving obviously is the same as on a Kruspe tuba I have seen photos of. I wonder about the period after Erfurt. Normally that would be followed by an abbreviation of the state in question, here Thüringen.

The USSR was picky about importing especially Western instruments but for the needs of top players in symphonies, but GDR instruments also were sold to Rumania and Bulgaria. The special thing about this instrument may be it having 4 valves. I have seen photos of huge Kaiser ovals made in Russia, but they all had only three valves.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote: The USSR was picky about importing especially Western instruments but for the needs of top players in symphonies, but GDR instruments also were sold to Rumania and Bulgaria. The special thing about this instrument may be it having 4 valves. I have seen photos of huge Kaiser ovals made in Russia, but they all had only three valves.

Klaus

I was told that Shosman was importing horns for military bands of USSR. It is possible that he was bringing instruments for symphonies. It would be interesting to learn more about my grandpas horn.


Here is some pictures of the back.

Sorry, Dan, I don't know much about my little horn. I'm attaching some links to pictures.

I bought it on eBay. I remembered my old buddy Bob Bryant had had one back in the '70's
and he sounded terrific on his. But he'd sound terrific on a garden hose.

The photos don't show it - I couldn't get enough resolution and will try using my new camera
once I figure it out - but the engraving says "E. Kruspe - Erfurt - Germany"

With the stovepipe bell and since it isn't "East Germany" I infer it is pre-WWII.
Since the engraving is not "Deutschland" likely its first destination was here - or Great Britain
(or Canada?). I couldn't find a serial number. I'm emailing the shop for their thoughts
and will share anything interesting.

Dan knocked out some dents for me, and gouged out the receiver so that a standard shank
mouthpiece would fit. Previously it had been sized midway between a tenor and bass
trombone shank. So adjusted, it has some moderate to serious intonation issues but
response is nice, other than a woofy low C. It's my "learner's permit" F.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u168 ... peF010.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u168 ... peF008.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u168 ... peF007.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u168 ... peF006.jpg" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Here are some better pictures. Your comments welcome

Any advise on how to clean and polish this horn without using abrasive polishes? I would like to play in the band again and will need to make this horn function and look nice

sugawi wrote:Any advise on how to clean and polish this horn without using abrasive polishes? I would like to play in the band again and will need to make this horn function and look nice

It already looks as good as my 'players'. If you want it to shine... I like to use Simichrome. A little goes a long way. Usually available at motorcycle shops. Harley guys love it.

I read that Simichrome is abrasive viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13176&p=106044&hili ... ve#p106044

Shining the body isn’t the main problem at all. Rather you should have some competent person mount the bottom bearing plates of the rotors correctly.

Klaus

sugawi wrote:I read that Simichrome is abrasive viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13176&p=106044&hili ... ve#p106044

Anything you rub the horn with is going to be abrasive to some degree. Simichrome is one of the least abrasive alternatives. Even a dry cotton cloth is abrasive is you want to split hairs.

One of the older gentlemen in my Dixieland ensemble used to swear by ketchup. He would slather it on... wait 30 minutes or so... and then hose it off. It shined the brass wonderfully. However... it's the mild acid in ketchup that does to work. Any way you cut it, you are going to removed a small dab of brass every time you polish. Doesn't matter if it's chemical or mechanical. It's still material removal when you polish brass.

imperialbari wrote:Shining the body isn’t the main problem at all. Rather you should have some competent person mount the bottom bearing plates of the rotors correctly.

Klaus

Is it possible to do it myself? Or it's to risky?

TubaTinker wrote: Doesn't matter if it's chemical or mechanical. It's still material removal when you polish brass.

That's a great explanation on polishing brass! I used search button a lot but this post summarizes everything.
P.S.
Is it citric acid in ketchup or vinegar? I also read somewhere to use one part vinegar and 3 parts Dawn dish washing liquid.

sugawi wrote:...... is it citric acid in ketchup or vinegar? I also read somewhere to use one part vinegar and 3 parts Dawn dish washing liquid.

Dunno whether it's the citric acid in tomatoes of the acetic acid in vinegar that does the work.... maybe both. Most acids leave behind traces of red on brass. The redness is actually a very thin film of copper where a tiny bit of zinc in yellow brass has been leached out on the surface. For some reason, the ketchup trick leaves behind a very bright brass finish. BTW.... I don't recommend this treatment. It's just an example of what some of the 'old timers' may have done. This old guy played a tiny Couesnon Eb upright tuba that always reminded me of cheeseburgers for some reason!