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This summer, I bought a B&S F tuba from Baltimore Brass, and the only markings on it are the serial number, the B&S logo, and the words "Perantucci Model." I was just wondering if anyone knew where I could find how old the horn is.

ecu_tuba wrote:This summer, I bought a B&S F tuba from Baltimore Brass, and the only markings on it are the serial number, the B&S logo, and the words "Perantucci Model." I was just wondering if anyone knew where I could find how old the horn is.

If it's a standard PT-10, it won't be that easy, unless someone knows how to date on the basis of serial number. But there are some clues.

I have a B&S Symphonie, made probably in the 70's, and another nearly identical B&S F tuba (no model marking, and no mention of Perantucci), dated in the early 90's. The provenance dates the latter instrument, and comparing the markings and construction details dates the former instrument.

On the older one, the braces attach to the bows using very slender solder pads made from tapered round rod that is flattened on one side. The braces rods themselves have a straight taper, getting thick to the middle where there is a decorative groove. The braces on the later instrument use a pad of similar shape, but wider and made from sheet brass. And the rods have a curvy shape more like a Victorian table leg.

The ferrules on the old have no decorative grooves at all, and the valves have no engraving. On the later one, the ferrules are grooved and the valve casings are engraved. The older one has a bell ring and the newer one does not.

Instruments made before 1991 will say "Made in GDR". GDR = German Democratic Republic = East Germany before unification. Instruments after 1991 say "Made in Germany". I suspect those made for the second-world markets might have said "DDR", which is the same things as GDR except in German.

Beyond those details, the instruments are basically identical (except for where they were intended to be different: One was supplied with clockspring action instead of open wire springs, one has six valves versus five, and neither of these features help with dating). The tuning slides are interchangeable between them, etc.

A quick measurement of the slide tubes will tell you which PT model it is. The different PT models have different valves, different valve paddle configurations (4+2, 5+1, etc.), and, more recently, different bell throat sizes. These dimensions and model names have not changed over the years that I can tell.

I'm tempted to suggest that if it says nothing, it's a PT-10 (the original Perantucci model) from the early 80's when they started their collaboration with B&S. That's mostly guessing, though. Bob Tucci might be able to help you if you send him a couple of pictures.

Rick "not knowing if B&S serial numbers were any more meaningful than many other German manufacturers" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: I'm tempted to suggest that if it says nothing, it's a PT-10 (the original Perantucci model) from the early 80's when they started their collaboration with B&S. That's mostly guessing, though. Bob Tucci might be able to help you if you send him a couple of pictures.

I owned for a time, the exact same make and model of F tuba the original poster refers to with the exact same markings on the bell along with made in GDR on the receiver (if I recall correctly).

I purchased it from the original owner who purchased it new in 1984. I was told it was a very early Perantucci F and that they were "handmade," for what that's worth. It a lacqured tuba with 5 valves (all right hand) with two different 5th valve slides (flat whole step and 2/3 "Miraphone" combo). I have the serial number recorded somewhere, but can't seem to find it at this time. Though the seller did not claim this, I later discoverd that the tuba was actually gold brass...the original owner and I both just thought it had a tinted lacquer.

Mine had a single, fixed leadpipe (not the interchangable ones that came later).

Now a question:

Is "Perantucci Model" the same as PT-10 for sure? When mine was compared to a confired (marked) PT-10 also from the GDR era (I believe this one was c. 1988-89), differences were noted, in particular the leadpipe and (obviously) the bell markings. That one was a nice tuba, to be sure, but was different than my "Perantucci Model" in the way that it played.

mine, purchased new in '84, is #0199167. On the bell engraving it specifically says, in English, "Made In German Democratic Republic". On the receiver, under the serial #, it says "GDR".

To the best of my knowledge it was manufactured around May of '84. HTH.

Tom wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:Is "Perantucci Model" the same as PT-10 for sure? When mine was compared to a confired (marked) PT-10 also from the GDR era (I believe this one was c. 1988-89), differences were noted, in particular the leadpipe and (obviously) the bell markings. That one was a nice tuba, to be sure, but was different than my "Perantucci Model" in the way that it played.

Do you recall the serial number of your unnumbered Perantucci Model?

The PT-10 has a 19mm bore through the second valve, and graduating to larger bore after that. If that's what you have, then it's a PT-10.The PT-11 has the fifth valve button on the left hand. The PT-12 has six valves.

There were differences over the years in the mechanism for the fifth valve, the presence or lack of a sixth valve, the length of the fifth-valve branch (longer in newer models), the bell rim style, and the presence of interchangeable leadpipes. But even when the dimensions are nominally the same, they do play differently. My own pair demonstrates that. If it's a design change, it's too subtle to measure, though that can be true of changes in leadpipe taper.

When you line them all up, though, you'll only be able to see differences in the minor cosmetic details. I'm reasonably sure in my recollection that the first product of the Perantucci collaboration was to enlarge the bore of the 5th and 1st valves to 19mm. (The Symphonie model started at a 17mm bore at the fifth valve, and 18mm at the first.) I would suspect that it was the only model, and it wasn't until later that variations needed a model-numbering scheme. They only started with a handful of mouthpieces, too, and had to change model numbering schemes to accommodate a growing product line.

By the way, I just inspected my old one, and can't find the country of origin anywhere on it. I seem to recall seeing GDR on it before, but I can't find it now. The label has the standard B&S logo (with Kliengethal-Markneukirchen) and "Modell Symphonie" underneath it. The serial number is 161719. That's an earlier number than Steve's, putting it before '84 which was about when the Perantucci collaboration started, if the serial numbers mean anything.

The newer one has the B&S logo as above and "Made in Germany" but no model designation of any sort. The serial number is 262277, and the owner history takes it back to the early 90's but still post-unification. If the serial numbers are in order, that should provide some clues.

Rick "wondering at the serial number of the OP's tuba" Denney

I moved to a new condo in the last month and unfortunately I just cannot seem to lay a finger on the serial number of the one that I owned.

The tuba is long since gone so I cannot inspect it, though it would be interesting to do so now that I am much more aware of what to be looking for, model variations, etc.

I suspect that the one I had was in fact a PT-10 though not marked on the bell as such

Though I am happy with what I have now, I would be interested in revisiting that instrument as a more developed player and with much more F tuba experience to see what my impressions would be today. I sold it because it was "difficult" for me to play, but I was a young, probably stupid, college student just learning to play F tuba.