TubeNet

Hello,

I have heard that Mahler wrote a tuba part for Beethoven's 9th Symphony. However, I have not been able to find it.
Do you know where that music might be available?

Ken

When I was in college, I heard Detroit play Mahler's orchestration of Beethoven's Ninth, and the tuba is present in the final movement. I believe that the DSO is the only ensemble that owns that orchestration, as its music director in the 20s borrowed the score from Mahler to write the parts.

Thank you.

Ken

The International Gustav Mahler Society in Vienna has listed under "future projects" section of their website a note that they plan to issue a critical edition of the Beethoven-Mahler 9th "in the near future."

http://www.gustav-mahler.org/english/" target="_blank

Kyle

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tubashaman2 wrote:

Sorry just had to!

Is this in the wrong thread, or do I just not get it?

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Ah, subtle...I hadn't noticed at all.

Our good friends Wilhelm Friedrich Wieprecht and Carl Moritz probably had something lying around that looked like a tuba while Lud Beethoven was still alive, however, it's doubtful, owing to Lud's profound deafness, that he would consider using a musical instrument he had never heard.

The patent on the tuba was accepted in 1835. The first tuba parts were written around 1830. Ludwig van Beethoven died in 1827.

tubashaman2 wrote:Look at the spelling of the topic:

It should be spelled as Beethoven, it is spelled as BEETHOVAN

Of course it should be Ludwig VAN Beethoven

I have never seen the Mahler tuba part for Beethoven 9, but following Gustav's example my orchestra's conductor (who is a composer himself) has arranged a tuba part specifically for me to play in our next concert in Salisbury Cathedral. Pretty good it is too with quite a lot to play in the 1st and 4th movements. In various places it reinforcing the basses, cellos, bassoons, timpani, or in the finale the trombones. It is all in the middle/upper tuba register, so lies well on F. I think it really does enhance the symphony, although wonder what the more knowledgeable patrons in the audience will think?

I am sure Beethoven being as forward looking as he was, would have included a tuba if it had been invented in his lifetime. The only problem for me is having played Beethoven 9 with tuba - I will never again be able to listen to other performances without 'missing' the tuba!

jacojdm wrote:When I was in college, I heard Detroit play Mahler's orchestration of Beethoven's Ninth, and the tuba is present in the final movement. I believe that the DSO is the only ensemble that owns that orchestration, as its music director in the 20s borrowed the score from Mahler to write the parts.

Mahler died in 1911. Does the quote above want to imply interesting forms of communication?

The practice of writing additional parts may be discussed out in very fine details of aesthetics. In real life performances at schools and also in the very small local professional orchestras quite common in Germany a century ago it is/was a matter of playing or not playing the music. At least one US state capital has a ballet orchestra, where all scores are adapted to a brass section of max 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 2 trombones, and 1 tuba (still much better than dancing to taped music). At least one orchestra in the South of the US gave up having a tenured bass trombonist in favour of giving a tubist tenure.

I haven’t ever read or heard Mahler’s tuba part for Beethoven’s 9th. Yet, it from tradition is very easy to re-establish that part, if Mahler didn’t invent new/additional notes, which I doubt he would have done.

My understanding is that the tuba only joins in during the last, choral, movement. Basically the tuba should read an octave down from the string bass part. It only should play, where the tutti brass plays, and then only if the full string corps plays also. Places like where the trombones play with the choir, and where the trumpets play behind the tenor soloist (in Bb major if memory serves me right), are so characteristic in their period instrumentation that the tuba would be out of place. Like with the NYPO pre-WWII recording practice of letting a tuba double the string basses, the added tuba isn’t there to support the bass trombone (or the original tuba part). It is there to support the full orchestra without drawing attention to itself.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

It is worth noting that Beethoven himself DID write a monster contrabassoon part, full of fast 16th note passages in the 4th movement that are qualified material for any orchestral audition.

This is reminiscent of Sir Eugene Goosens' (or Sir Thomas Beecham's, depending upon whose story you believe) arrangement of Handel's Messiah. It takes total advantage of the modern symphony orchestra. Imagine* the Hallelujah Chorus complete with cymbals, triangle, and 100-piece symphony orchestra with FULL brass section (yes, including tuba!). It's so un-HIP (Historically Informed Performance) that it's laughable--until you begin to appreciate it for what it is: what Messiah might have sounded like if Handel had the full 20th century symphony orchestra at his disposal. On that basis, it's a glorious experience. After all, Handel wasn't too far off the mark himself for bombastic performances--think of the huge forces of wind instruments that reportedly performed Music for the Royal Fireworks on barges on the Thames...

*or listen to it: http://www.amazon.com/Handel-Messiah-Si ... B000003FB8

This also is related to the discussion about a solution for the poor tuba player with his/her 14 notes in Dvorak's Symphony No. 9:

Posted Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:26 pm

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:
Once, I "wanted" there to be a more substantial tuba part to Dvorak's New World Symphony, so I played along with the 3rd trombone. I got found out, and received a lecture about "composer integrity" from the conductor.


Robert Ryker arranged a very musical, independent tuba part for an orchestral performance of the first, second and fourth movements of the New World Symphony (the Scherzo is still marked tacet). However, despite the quality of the arranged part, it would still be a good idea to show it to the conductor and get his/her permission before striking out on your own with notes that are not in the conductor's score.

I actually like that Beecham Messiah

I think today the classical music world can get too obsessed with 'Historically Informed Performance'. Music is a performance art and should be living - not considered like a museum piece which can never be modernised. New interpretations, or slight re-orchestrating does not harm the original music in any way. Beethoven, or anyone else's original score is in not harmed by a conductor adding their personal mark to the music by slightly re-orchestrating to suit their taste, or the available ensemble. Such re-interpreting adds to the variety and spice of music and I personally find interesting, enabling hearing of a piece in a new light.

I've written about this practice of having the tubas (there were more than one) doubling the double bass part with the orchestra before. This was actually done way before World War II... The practice was stopped about 1929 or 1930.

The reason: Primitive microphones were acoustical and could only receive reflected sounds. Double basses could be felt but not heard. The tubas (which had recording bells) could be aimed towards the mike (resembling a corn flakes box). With a 1:1 ratio of tubas:double basses, the bass lines could be heard and felt.