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An interesting question, but I don't know how to answer since I'm not really that keenly aware of my air speed or embouchure placement (I do slide a bit in the extreme registers, but not in the middle of the bass clef staff).

I will say that in neither note "case" you have presented do I feel a particular need to do anything "different" like speed up the air or change the embouchure placement. Ask the same question about Gb 3 spaces below the staff, and I'll tell you I do some pretty weird things on F tuba to play it, but not so much on C tuba. Ask the same question about F 2 spaces above the staff and I'll tell you I feel the need to play with "faster" air on the C tuba than the same note on the F.

Perhaps, as an experiment, you should play the C in question on your F tuba both open and 4th valve. See if you notice doing anything different between the two.

bubbacox wrote:So for this Gb you mention - say for a moment that you were to play a long, mezzo-forte note at this pitch, on your C tuba. No weirdness, correct? If I am understanding correctly, there is a bit of "weirdness" in play here to get that note to sound well on your F tuba - but now, once you've "settled" on the pitch, are you doing something different on one tuba than the other?

Does this make sense? I mean, sure, there are some weird things to "get" a low Gb on an F tuba, but once you have it, is it that much different on a C tuba?

Yeah, it makes sense. I find on the F tuba to get the low Gb to speak I have to really drop the jaw, get a lot of space between my teeth, and feel like I am blowing "down" through my chops into the mouthpiece. I don't shift the embouchure for this note, but I'll bet I'm using more lower lip on this note on the F than on a C tuba. I don't have to do the serious jaw-drop on a C tuba until low Eb or so, and then I start a pedal-shift (pretty much lower lip only) embouchure on low Db and, of course, the pedal range.

Once I have the pitch "settled"...probably the air speed is about the same, but I still have the lower jaw and lower lip predominance that I don't feel like I need on the C tuba. Gb on the C tuba still feels like middle-of-the-embouchure to me.

Perfect example...Till Eulenspiegel by Strauss. Towards the end is that really loud two note motive F to low Gb...many players will do this piece on C just to "avoid" having to play this note on F tuba (which is advantageous for much of the rest of the piece).

I could really illustrate this phenomenon for you by doing some octave jump flexibility studies on each horn...you could see the changes in placement on the F tuba nicely on Gb (or maybe even G) octaves where I bet you would hardly see any change in embouchure placement if I did the same exercise on a C tuba. You might consider trying this in front of a mirror and see if you notice the same thing...might help to answer your original question as well.

Blowing into a C tuba is very different than blowing into an F tuba. When Im playing my C, I think of a warmer, richer quality of air. When I play my F, I use a more direct airstream. I still go for richness and warmth of breath but its got more the feeling of shooting an arrow, whereas my C tuba airsteam is more like throwing a basketball or something like that. I dont understand what goes on in my head sometimes....

Just leave that note to the violists. If somebody have tuned their instruments properly for them, they should be able to get it right.

bubbacox wrote:Does one use the same amount and speed of air and same position of embouchure to play second-space "C" on the bass clef staff when one is using an F tuba as when one is using a C tuba?

I don't think about that. I just play the note. It comes out as easily on bass tubas as contrabass tubas.

I may blow the big tuba a little differently than the F tubas, but only because I'm trying to achieve a certain sound on each.

My process is: see spot; blow note. Your question makes the process sound more like a conscious process of see spot, determine required air speed, position embouchure, blow note. I may play those games in the extremes of the range until they become automatic, but never in the middle register, even at my level.

Rick "noting that the mouthpieces are basically the same" Denney

It would seem that what is happening after the mouthpiece is more germain to this going from basstuba to contrabasstuba, rather than what the player is doing. Your embouchure is buzzing the same pitch regardless of what is in front of it.

As to the air speed, I remember hearing Jake say in a masterclass that he conducted an experiment of comparable flow rates of tuba and trumpet, with Bud Herseth playing trumpet in the experiment. He found that there was the exact same flow rate and volume of air required when he played a middle c (c above bass clef staff) at mf on his York as when Bud played his low c (c one ledger line below treble clef) at mf. So the flow rates seem to be the same on brass instruments on a given pitch regardless of the type of instrument.

bubbacox wrote:Does one use the same amount and speed of air and same position of embouchure to play second-space "C" on the bass clef staff when one is using an F tuba as when one is using a C tuba?

Interesting research was done on this in the 1960's with the Chicago Symphony brass section. Amazingly, it was found that when different instruments play the same note all of the measureable characteristics were the same. For instance, when the trombone, horn, tuba or trumpet played a middle C, the inter-oral air pressure was virtually the same. The air flow rate was also vitually the same. This result was a surprise to all of the musicials involved.

This study would indicate to me that a reasonably good tubist should have the same performance characteristics playing a C in the bass clef staff whether he was playing a BBb, CC, EEb or F tuba.

The "embouchure position" cannot be measured, however, it would follow that if other factors are virtually the same, the embouchure should be virtually the same.

"Empirical evidence" could be undependable because of the way we "feel" about one tuba over another. I would prefer to rely on the research here.

You guys are thinking too much about the mechanics of the tuba. To use an Arnold Jacobs approach, imagine the sound and the pitch in your head and it will come out of the tuba. To use a second-hand quote from Bill Bell via one of his students at Indiana U. about playing different pitched tubas, "When I see a C, I play a C." And, to sum it all up, a quote from my main teacher, Paul Krzywicki, "QUIT THINKING AND BLOW THE HORN, HARRISON!!!!"

When you are playing a C, your lips are vibrating at the frequency of that pitch.

Think of it this way:

A-440 = a pitch that has a frequency of 440 cycles per second. That is the A second-space treble clef. There is a mathematical relationship between octaves in equal temperament: raising a pitch one octave doubles the frequency. Likewise, lowering the pitch one octave halves the frequency. Here is a helpful chart: http://peabody.sapp.org/class/st2/lab/notehz/

So if you drop A-440 one octave to the top-line bass clef A, you now have A-220. Now drop it another octave and you have A-110, bottom space bass clef - a note close to the C you posit in the OP. That C happens to have a pitch frequency of 131 cycles p/s.

Now, no matter what horn you play that pitch on, your lips will vibrate at 131 cycles p/s for it to be exactly that pitch. Tuning is the art of getting in that general area AND in agreement with the other pitches being played simultaneously.

So, if your lips have to vibrate at that frequency to produce that pitch, why would you change anything in your set up from horn to horn? The answer is, for purely aesthetic reasons (timbre, tone color, etc.). Since these parameters are purely subjective, what changes you make to your set up from horn to horn are entirely dependent on your personal preferences and the preferences of those for whom you play your instrument.

So it all comes back to two of Jacob's axioms of playing:

Don't think, just play.

and

Don't sound bad.

bubbacox wrote:I suppose this is asking a bunch of strangers to humor me for a minute when you've got some tubas on your face and some time, and let me know what you find out.

Okay, I'll go with that.

When I play that C on my Bb tuba, it just comes out. When I switch to my F tuba, I don't think, "Oops, this is an F tuba, I have to remember to blow that C differently." I could play that C unconsciously the first moment I picked up an F tuba. That suggests to me that there is no fundamental difference at all.

And learning to get my best sound on that C on an F tuba was no more difficult than learning to get the best sound on that C playing a new contrabass tuba. The only thing required in those middle-range notes, near as I can tell, is remembering which buttons to press.

The C below it is another story.

Rick "who probably wouldn't think much of an F tuba that required conscious thought on that note" Denney

I think about it in a different way. First of all, I play Eb, so it's a little different, but...yeah. I tend to think about my C in the staff on my CC as open (shall we say duh?). On my eefer, I think "I put down my 1st and 2nd valves. This changed my Eb tuba into a CC. And the C on my CC is open". The same with my low C or Bb (with the respective valves, of course).
I've done this enough to get comfortable playing all of those, and just see "C" and automatically put down whatever fingers are needed for the instrument I'm on.

bubbacox wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:The C below it is another story.

I'd like to hear that story.

Just poke around for the discussions of F tubas.

Rick "of which there was an extended one, and recently, here" Denney