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I imagine there is more to it than a little more tubing in the slide. Perhaps that is why it's hard to find such an item. The valve slides would have to have enough 'pull' in them to make the shift, also

However, I'm sure the Usual Sources could make you one for a reasonable price.

It does change the proportion of cylindrical to conical tubing, so it may affect intonation on notes you would not expect. For example, the retrofit bell on my 186 was too short, putting the horn a almost 1/4 tone sharp with the tuning slide in, and just barely in tune with it pulled as far as possible without it wobbling out. After retrofitting a longer main tuning slide, the nodes changed. The most interesting one is that mid line D is still flat and needs 1+2 alternate to be in tune, but Db is almost there, and 2nd space C is right on.

It also changed the overall taper of the bugle, which compresses the extreme octaves slightly, but that's another issue.

It's not a big deal to build a main tuning slide that is two feet longer but the results are what I consider to be marginal at best. For a while, Mirafone would sell a tuning slide to convert a CC 186 to BBb. There's probably a very good reason why they didn't sell on with every CC tuba. I fiddled with a conversion slide on a 184 but like I said... the results were marginal. I don't think it's something a professional (or good amateur) player should consider in order to have an 'all size fits all' horn. If a person just wanted something to help 'cross over' until he could buy a different horn, it might be worth considering.

Just for grins... if you want to see what might happen on your horn... find a couple of lengths of the appropriate diameter of garden hose and plug them in between the horn and the tuning slide. Then... you're going to have to pull out all the tuning slides waaaay out.

Mirafone offered BBb slides for its 184, 185 and 186 back in the '70's. I got one for my 184. It made a beautiful CC play at best barely tolerable as a BBb.

I'll gladly sell mine to a fellow 184 CC owner.

Reminds me of the old story about buying a pornographic record. What good is it if you don't have a pornograph to play it on?

Here is what I did for the Yamaha - it uses stock pieces as much as possible. At first I had Amati spit valves at the bottoms but later took them off, replacing them with the brass ribs to help prevent denting. This shows how much I pull out the slides to be in good tune (there is a lot left.) I had some simple stops made to keep the slides from pushing in, but I can always remove them and play the horn in C (Rare that I do.) Remember, Yamaha did not make a BBb 621 until several years after I did this conversion. This has worked pretty well for me - the end of the extension sticks out just a bit below the bottom bow, so it does press into my leg in some seated playing positions, but I get used to it...

I have a few other shots, or if anybody wants dimensions, let me know.

Why do this conversion at all? Has the US supply of BBb tubas dried out?

K

BigDale wrote:David,

Very interesting indeed! How is the intonation? Does it really take a good CC and just make a mediochre BBb, as was mentioned above? Matt at Dillon's said he could custom make the part for not too much at all! I am going to email him the link to your post.

PLEASE feel free to post more pics if you would!

I have used several different tuning meters to check all the valve combinations, CC vs BBb - they are certainly very close. 4th valve is the only problem, not that it is out of tune - because of other pipes and bends, the hidden length of the two tuning slides for that valve have very little extra slack. (If they were any longer I would not be able to remove them!) The have about 1/2 inch engagement.
The YCC-621 is a pretty small horn, but it plays fairly well in tune (at normal volume.) For my skill-level and the type of music I play, the BBb conversion is certainly adequate. I wouldn't use it to solo in some famous symphony, but I probably will not ever have that opportunity

here are the other 2 shots: This is a rough dimensional guide - what you do might depend on the current availability of elbow bends in the correct diameter pipe. DRAWING IS NOT TO SCALE!

imperialbari wrote:Why do this conversion at all? Has the US supply of BBb tubas dried out?

K

When I bought this horn, there was no equivalent 4 valve 3/4 BBb "professional quality" horn available at a decent price. This particular horn was on display at Best Music in Oakland when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit. it fell off the shelf about 12 feet. Dick Akwright fixed it up and I got it for less than half price (wholesale.) He also made the extension system.

If I were to replace the horn now, I would probably just buy a YBB-621.

David Richoux wrote:

imperialbari wrote:Why do this conversion at all? Has the US supply of BBb tubas dried out?

K

When I bought this horn, there was no equivalent 4 valve 3/4 BBb "professional quality" horn available at a decent price. This particular horn was on display at Best Music in Oakland when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit. it fell off the shelf about 12 feet. Dick Akwright fixed it up and I got it for less than half price (wholesale.) He also made the extension system.

If I were to replace the horn now, I would probably just buy a YBB-621.

This explains some special circumstances. The 621 basses are rather close anyway, which may make conversions work because they are smallish.

Very few cuts of BBb’s to CC appear to happen nowadays. I see little reason for the opposite to happen either, especially with wider bore models.

K

imperialbari wrote:Why do this conversion at all? Has the US supply of BBb tubas dried out?

It's just that guys like to fiddle with stuff.

This last weekend, I was with a group of people who were smelting iron in their backyard. Todd had read about some Viking re-creators in Finland who were successful smelting iron on a small scale so decided about six months ago to give it a try. He made the ore to be smelted out of iron oxide and clay. He burnt down scrap wood into charcoal. He made a smelter out of firebrick and used a leaf blower for the oxygen source. I was the guy who put the pound of ore in every eight minutes for 6 hours. Another guy fed the charcoal constantly the entire time. And a bunch of other people stood around watching, eating and drinking beer. After five hours, we drained off slag and there was all this molten crap coming out everywhere. After six hours, we stopped feeding the thing (we ran out of materials) and drained out the molten ooze from beneath. I went home soon after and haven't seen Todd since Sunday but will see him tomorrow and he will tell me if we made any iron. Why? Why the hell not?

Guys like to fiddle with stuff.

Right now, I'm looking at the cheap Amati Eb on the other side of the room. I know guys make CCs out of Eb horns. It will probably sound like *** but I wonder if I could do that with my Amati? The valve slides all have a *lot* of pull and I was able to turn it into a kinda sharp D horn with the stock tuning slide. Getting some hose from the hardware store is pretty cheap so, I dunno. Maybe it will sound good. Kinda sounds like *** now. S'pose I could make it sound worse. Or not. I can always put it back into Eb if I want. Don't quite have that option cutting a BBb into a CC.

Yeah, guys like to fiddle with stuff.

BigDale wrote:Well, I am no fiddler, but I can certainly play clawhammer banjo!
As soon as Matt said that the 3rd and 4th slides most likely would NOT be long enough and would have to be converted, well, that shot the idea in the foot. Especially if the playing result is not good in the end. This is, after all, MY 603 that plays like butter. Adding a longer tuning slide and moving some others out, OK. Major surgery NO WAY!

It would be possible to make extension sleeves for the 3rd and 4th valves without altering the horn at all. But, again, you are not a fiddler...

The Big Ben wrote:It would be possible to make extension sleeves for the 3rd and 4th valves without altering the horn at all. But, again, you are not a fiddler...

If the instrument architecture allows so.

If the extension links involve anything but straight tubing, then costs will accelerate.

K

PS: The Eb tubas turned into CC tubas mostly are about the bells of monster Eb tubas (with odd intonation patterns) proving themselves having the right proportions of CC tubas. Sam Gnagey has made quite a few of these conversions using mostly old King 2341 bodies. These old Eb bells formed the patterns for the CB/Getzen and the Conn 52J tuba models. Rather go fiddling a fiddle than turning a small Eb into a CC.

imperialbari wrote:

The Big Ben wrote:It would be possible to make extension sleeves for the 3rd and 4th valves without altering the horn at all. But, again, you are not a fiddler...

If the instrument architecture allows so.

If the extension links involve anything but straight tubing, then costs will accelerate.

K

PS: The Eb tubas turned into CC tubas mostly are about the bells of monster Eb tubas (with odd intonation patterns) proving themselves having the right proportions of CC tubas. Sam Gnagey has made quite a few of these conversions using mostly old King 2341 bodies. These old Eb bells formed the patterns for the CB/Getzen and the Conn 52J tuba models. Rather go fiddling a fiddle than turning a small Eb into a CC.

Yeah, I knew that but Baltimore Brass had a King Eb that was turned into a CC not long ago. It was said to work well. The valve slides on my Amati will go long enough and I'm gonna use plastic tubing to stretch the tuning slide.

Sounds like this would be for you:

http://hosaphone.com/

imperialbari wrote:Sounds like this would be for you:

http://hosaphone.com/

Thanks! That looks like fun! I might give it a try!

David Richoux wrote:When I bought this horn, there was no equivalent 4 valve 3/4 BBb "professional quality" horn available at a decent price...
If I were to replace the horn now, I would probably just buy a YBB-621.

M-W 11? Lidl 701? Miraphone 184? Weril? Jupiter (incl the 3/4 rotary)?

iiipopes wrote:

David Richoux wrote:When I bought this horn, there was no equivalent 4 valve 3/4 BBb "professional quality" horn available at a decent price...
If I were to replace the horn now, I would probably just buy a YBB-621.

M-W 11? Lidl 701? Miraphone 184? Weril? Jupiter (incl the 3/4 rotary)?

Sure, I would check out a lot of other horns, but my preference would be a 4 piston front action 3/4 BBb for under $5K (under $3K better!) But I am not shopping right now...