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Seeing another post on the board made me wonder: what is the bass trombone "equivalent" of a Miraphone 186? That is, something that:

-- can be had at a reasonable price (used)
-- is well built and has a characteristic sound
-- is sufficient for 90%+ of us
(-- 1 valve is fine)

What is the "standard"?

I would say the Bach 50B (numerous variants). The horn has a long history of performing well, fairly consistent builds, and being able to be used in numerous settings. Its price point is moderate compared to the makes of some of the custom basses being produced but it is more expensive than Holton/Conn/King and Yamaha, and can readily be found on the used market. While it is no longer the most called upon horn in professional circles, it is certainly capable of being used as such.

I have a 22 year old Bach 50B that I purchased my senior year in highschool, and while I have moved on to another main horn, I still used the Bach as my jazz bass.

The Bach 50 is a fine horn for the advanced high schooler all the way up to the professional level and is very flexible to be used in different types of playing.

I'll second the vote for the Bach 50. I've not much experience playing one, but like the Miraphone 186, it is a workhorse, is well regarded, and fits into most any musical setting.

LJV wrote:Yep, Bach 50B.

Now, I really do think highly of the Getzen basses (what eva, Bob!! talk to the hand ) and use one frequently (tonight, as a matter of fact), but they haven't been around like the Bach 50B.

The Getzen 3047/3062 horns are very nice. The Eterna series basses are also good horns.

The older Bach 50Bs, New York models are still some of the most highly regarded basses around, and serve as the blue print for some of the newer designs.

My take on the Bach 50:
I have not played on any of the post-strike Bach horns.

I have not personally played on any of the vintage Bach basses, although I have heard many good things come out of them.

I HAVE played on Bach 50's made in the late 80s-90s-early 2000s(?)

I would not recommend them as an all-around horn at all. In many cases, I would not recommend them at all.
The good Bachs were very good at what they do (making a very big blah sound that never comes apart).
The bad Bachs were just very bad.

bloke wrote:

MartyNeilan wrote: The bad Bachs were just very bad.

OK...just like the bad 186's.

I am sure Bloke has probably seem a lot more Bach 50's than I have. However, it would be hard to compare the consistency of Mirafone to the inconsistency of Bach from certain time periods. Bad Bachs are out there, and there are more than a few of them.
It may be that the pros that Bloke plays with and repairs for have gone to great lengths picking out their horns, so as not to be stuck with one of the many dogs.
It has also been sad that a very bad Bach can be taken completely apart, put back together, and become a very decent horn.
That said, I am still not partial to the tone of the modern generation Bach 50, which to me sounds heavy and dull, hard to color, and almost too inconsistent throughout extreme dynamics. The earlier 50's had a much more colorful sound and spoke more readily.

"186" of bass trombones? I've owned a few Bachs and Conns over the years and liked them a lot. They are good horns. But, the bass trombone that really knocks my socks off is the Benge 290. Here's mine. (I hope the photos work.) BTW, I may be selling this mint horn because of my age and deteriorating air supply. Gasp. Bass trombones take a LOT of air.

I think the four-valve 186CC of bass trombones would be an Elkhart Conn72H. Fabulous horns if you can manage without the extra hardware.

Bach 50B in terms of suitability, sound, etc... NOT in build quality consistency. A good Bach is very good .

A king 7B is nice (but not allround), I was impressed with a Kanstul (don't remember the model #) with CR valves. Benge 290 is indeed nice. The Willson 551 TA has exeptional build quality and has the fancy rotax valves. My brassband ownes a Conn 71H, a very nice horn......

Considering the almost 60 year lineage of the Bach 50B, I don't think any other bass trombone comes close as being as widely accepted as a standard for the instrument. Marty is absolutely right about the mid 80s to current horns, they are widely inconsistent and some very poor examples. I have played a couple of the post strike 50s with Thayers and Haggmans and they are very good horns. The Mt. Vernon era horns are some of the most sought after basses around, the equivalent of York in the bass trombone world.

If the OP asked what bass trombone comes closest to the Miraphone 186's affordable cost, good used value, ease of use, and overall quality, it has to be a 50B. Someone mentioned the Conn, and yes the Elkhart horns the 62H, 71H, and 72H horns were very good horns, but the Bachs of the same era were probably better. As with any horn, some are better than others.

Its hard to compare to the 186, simply because bass trombones from Conn, King, Benge, Holton, and Bach were produced on such a large scale from the 70s on as compared to Miraphone's tubas, that quality control just wouldn't compare. There are so many low volume custom shops producing trombones today, that the Bachs are no longer comparable. Edwards, Shires, Rath, Greenhoe, and Kanstul are all making horns that are as good if not better than the old Bachs. I think a more interesting comparison is why the trend in bass trombones is towards completely custom modular horns, while tubas have not done this (maybe the cost?).

IMO the good Bach 50Bs are the equivalent of the good Miraphone 186s.

Last year my school saw and heard the sound I was able to make on my Kanstul, and decided to get another bass trombone (yeah, thanks). They got a Bach with double Thayers (in the style of my little Sarah Slava), and it plays really well, with a great big sound and pretty free low range. The pedal F and beyond were a little shaky, but I probably wasn't as solid on those as I am now.
When all is said and done, I put in my vote for the Kanstul 1585T. It's got double Thayer valves, doesn't break in the sound (until you get realllly loud), can play quietly, is really free and open. Honestly, I love this little trombone. Back when I was searching for a bone, I knew that I wanted one in silver plated (...it's my thing...long story there, don't ask). The wait for a Getzen would have been about 6 months, and it would have cost about the same. My horn was ready in 2 or 3 weeks, and was even delivered to the hotel I was at by Steve Ferguson. I ended up getting another bell in rose brass so that I can play with a mellower tone more easily if I do an orchestra gig, but overall, this horn is hands down THE best bass trombone I have ever played.
...pictures can be available if anyone wants to see

Definately the Bach 50. Every man and his dog has played, owned, or otherwise spent a significant amount of time on one. Everyone knows someone who owns one. They have a distinctive sound, and many famous recordings have been played on one. They come in different configurations, but somehow always sound like a Bach. You can play them in just about any musical situation that requires a bass trombone. Sounds like a near perfect comparison.

Andrew (who sold his Bach 50, but is looking for a 186...)

The Holton TR-185 gets my vote. Well designed, easy to play, resonant, nimble, and with nice intonation characteristics, it is the bass trombone that Gordon Hallberg used to win his Boston Symphony audition. Unfortunately, its sound wasn't big enough for the orchestra and Gordon had to get a Bach 50.

David