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tubashaman2 wrote:I watch youtube videos of tuba players from different countries. I have seen Asians play BBb, CC, and F, same thing in latin america. I was wondering what the "standard" choice of tubas are in other countries, especially for orchestral purposes.

I know in Norway and Sweden, CC and Eb are popular choices....

In the UK (and to a lesser extent the British Empire as it existed into the 20th century): Eb since about 1965 or so, and F before that. Some back in those days used contrabasses for moving earth when needed (George Wall was pictured with an Alex kaiser, and Fletch owned a Holton).

In Germany: F for everything, except Bb for the big stuff.

In Austria, F for everything, and a Viennese F at that.

In France, C euphonium or F tuba for everything in the PC period (pre-Culbertson), and whatever Culbertson has done since (F and C).

In America, a C contrabass for most things and an F as needed, at least as far back as the 30's.

There may be other traditions, but I suspect they are borrowed from one of these.

In all cases (except where dictated by orchestra policy), exceptions abound.

You should find a copy of Clifford Bevan's book.

Rick "noting that band traditions differ from orchestral traditions" Denney

Rick Denney wrote: In Germany: F for everything, except Bb for the big stuff.

In Austria, F for everything, and a Viennese F at that.

I think Austria today is largely the same as Germany, F as regular tuba, with BBb for what are marked, or considered contrabass tuba parts.

Interestingly in the Netherlands, just across the border from Germany CC and F has long been the preference.

And another district regional preference is;
Russia - BBb for everything

Of course internationalisation is meaning previous national norms are slowly changing, with CC becoming ever more prevalent for orchestral use, even creeping into Germany with American tubists

So, going back to the "what is marked" thought...
Tchaikovsky 4th Symphony is clearly marked "bass tuba." Have any Eruopean orchestras ever actually played Tchaik 4 on an F tuba? Any recordings of that?

:

MartyNeilan wrote:So, going back to the "what is marked" thought...
Tchaikovsky 4th Symphony is clearly marked "bass tuba." Have any European orchestras ever actually played Tchaik 4 on an F tuba? Any recordings of that?

Just wanted to revisit this thought and see if anyone had any ideas.

MartyNeilan wrote:

MartyNeilan wrote:So, going back to the "what is marked" thought...
Tchaikovsky 4th Symphony is clearly marked "bass tuba." Have any European orchestras ever actually played Tchaik 4 on an F tuba? Any recordings of that?

Just wanted to revisit this thought and see if anyone had any ideas.

I don't know about playing on F in Germany, but it is frequently performed on Eb in the UK

Tchaik 4 has no doubt been played on F in the past. I am sure I have heard of even Prokofiev 5 being played on F

Rick Denney wrote:Rick "noting that band traditions differ from orchestral traditions" Denney

Okay, let's hear more!

One thing I like about hearing some non-US bands is the mix of bass and contrabass tubas. It's an interesting change from our "bring the biggest gun ya got" mentality (which don't get me wrong is still very pleasing to my ears).

Does anyone else try to match instrument type with the composer's country of origin? For example (assuming you are in a place that has these resources-school), when playing Holst, using a Besson or Eb bass tuba (British style), using a Miraphone/other German tuba on Wagner, or using a St. Petersberg on Tchaikovsky (jk)?

bort wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:Rick "noting that band traditions differ from orchestral traditions" Denney

Okay, let's hear more!

One thing I like about hearing some non-US bands is the mix of bass and contrabass tubas. It's an interesting change from our "bring the biggest gun ya got" mentality (which don't get me wrong is still very pleasing to my ears).

I recall a lecture at a TMEA conference by Revelli (or perhaps a quote of something he said by another speaker) where he described a band as incomplete if it didn't both Bb and Eb tubas.

I, too, like the mix, but it depends on the music being performed. I can think of two cases where I have played F tuba in a section of contrabasses. 1.) For a true split part, where the upper part serves a different musical purpose than the lower part, and thus benefits from a distinct voice. Lincolnshire Posy comes to mind. 2.) For orchestral transcriptions, where the orchestral tuba part would have been performed on a bass tuba in every case. Even if the part is not split (or split only in octaves), the F tuba can sing out on the high tuba part and the contrabass tubas can provide the foundation on the string-bass parts of the transcription. Berlioz comes to mind, and Brahms, among others.

I'm not as big a fan of mixing in bass tubas for more modern band compositions that offer split parts in octaves seemingly only as an accommodation to the inevitability of Eb tubas in the band (and Eb tubas with three valves, at that). In those cases, I'm happy with everyone on the lower octave on a contrabass. (If the part goes too low, however, I will often play the upper octave on the big tuba just to make sure that we have pitch clarity. That's probably a reaction to our limited skills as a community band in the very low register.) Band music is already filled enough with middle voices.

I usually do not see bass tubas in the professional military bands, but I do often see 6/4 tubas and 4/4 tubas. I suspect the guys playing the smaller instruments are serving that role, and in the context of the sound of the group, provide the necessary contrast. In professional bands and wind ensembles in the U.S., I see mostly C tubas, the same as in orchestras. In community bands, the amateurs play Bb and the pros who are sitting in play C. College bands are usually somewhere in between.

Rick "not familiar with wind band practices in other countries" Denney

bort wrote:One thing I like about hearing some non-US bands is the mix of bass and contrabass tubas.

In Britain it is 2 x Eb and 2 x BBb in brass bands (with separate treble clef music), while in military bands it is a combination of Eb and BBb (3+1 Besson, or similar compensated pistons) in a more flexible mix. Maybe one of each, or two Eb and one BBb, or all Eb. Commonly/usually Eb outnumber BBb in a band.

In Germany it is usual to play F and BBb in bands. Going from the bands I have seen, often in equal numbers. It is also possible to see a band with just BBb (something like M-W 25), or a small band with just an F. Kaiser BBb can also be seen played in bands as well as orchestras.

I believe that in France they use top piston BBb in bands and in Russia rotary Eb and BBb.

Tuba Guy wrote:Does anyone else try to match instrument type with the composer's country of origin? For example (assuming you are in a place that has these resources-school), when playing Holst, using a Besson or Eb bass tuba (British style), using a Miraphone/other German tuba on Wagner, or using a St. Petersberg on Tchaikovsky (jk)?

Not me. Even if I owned all the necessary variations, I'm not sure those differences are important enough (from an audience perspective) to justify the risk of playing an unfamiliar instrument poorly.

After all, if Jacobs had trouble after making such a choice, where might that leave the rest of us?

By the way, I don't think the St. Petersburg is significantly different from, say, a Cerveny to warrant the unique category you give it. Tchaikovsky, in particular, was steeped in the German tradition of sound, but I daresay the tubas of his day were so unlike the tubas (or tuba players) of today (however they are shaped), that attempting such distinctions would be an academic exercise at best.

Rick "thinking the St. Pete is as German as a bunch of Russians could make it" Denney

Neptune wrote:Interestingly in the Netherlands, just across the border from Germany CC and F has long been the preference.

This is only in orchestras. All other bands, regardless what kind of band (brassband/fanfare/harmonie/"funband" and everything in between) use mostly (not al ofcource) BB Tubas. In case of bigger bands there is/are also one ore more Eb Tubas.

Greeting from a Dutchy

In belgium:

90% are BBb and Eb mix (45% of each).
Eb are almost all british style 3+1.
BBb are all types you can find out there: piston, rotary, front or top-action...depending mostly on the band's budget.
The other 10% are CC. These people have an expensive horn most of the time(hirsbrunner, yamaha custom, that sort of things) and consider themselves more serious amateurs or semi-pro's. That's a fact, not an opinion.
I have never seen a single F tuba in bands over here.

Wim

P@rick, Thank you for the clarification about the Netherlands.

Out of interest, is your band music in concert pitch, or transposed?

Neptune wrote:Out of interest, is your band music in concert pitch, or transposed?

Our music is transposed (brassband/fanfare/harmonie/"funbands") so that's probably 95% of the bands in The Netherlands. I believe the orchestras play concert pitch.