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I was just told in an audition (where I played Ride of the Valkyries, mvt 1 of the Broughton, and mvt 2 of the Barnes concerto, if you know them) that I need to get out of the habit of always using air vibrato because it's detracting from the volume of air I am able to put through the horn, especially on the Ride.

Instead, I was told to develop jaw vibrato, which wouldn't interfere with my air support.

My problem is that I've been under exposed to large ensemble playing since my schools schedule doesn't allow band with a full honors courseload. I've been to several Honor bands this year, but the majority of my practice has been on solos exclusively for the last year or so.

Has anyone had any similar experiences?

I, personally, am not a fan of the diaphragm vibrato as it adds too much tension to the abdomen. When you inhale, everything expands down - until it reaches the muscle tension. I, again personally, find that I can get more air if I keep this area relaxed.

The jaw vibrato, again for me, is easier and I can vary it more to suit the piece or style of music in which I am playing.

One thing to remember:

Using vibrato is like zipping your pants in public....it's to be done discretely. If you use it on everything and begin to sound like an old school British euphonium player, then you just leave the audience wondering if you were able to actually play ANY of those notes in tune.

Just my $0.02

Roger

not convinced you are serious,but, no vibrato in "the ride" .only sparingly at the end of long notes in lyrical music.Definitely "jaw".Listen to pro oboists,flutists,trumpeters,and all string players to get some ideas.Tasteful and sparingly are key concepts...

A flash from the past-

Arnold Jacobs did not like the diaphragm vibrato. He subggested the Jaw also.

my schools schedule doesn't allow band with a full honors courseload.

Sorry to be slightly off-topic but am I the only one that finds this statement somewhat distressing?

it's detracting from the volume of air I am able to put through the horn, especially on the Ride.

No vibrato on the Ride. Ever.

As a general rule of thumb "Do not use vibrato on most German orchestral repertoire"
-Bud Herseth

I was taught "lip vibrato" by Rex Martin. Articulating "toe-woe-woe-woe" etc. Diaphragmatic vibrato has too much potential to alter the resonance of your sound, in my opinion.

What Wade said. He is completely right.

I agree with the advice to stay away from airflow vibrato methods. I also agree that in general, less is more. compare a modern pop soprano voice (whitney huston, mariah carie, etc) to classic pop recordings of the 40's to 60's. The reason that Ms. Huston and Ms. Carrie's music makes you tired is the excess of both vibrato in sustained notes and the excessive use of other vocal ornamentation.

all of this of course is me talking out of my fanny.

One of my early teachers (I was an adult before taking any lessons, and I have only studied with professional performers, so this might be unlike your situations) suggested that I learn vibrato the way flute players do it. They don't move their jaw. But, truth be told, I could never do it any other way than moving my jaw. I really don't know how flute players do it. But he could do it (very) well.

My point is that the method you use is one thing, and the result is another. No matter what your method, I have this feeling that if your listeners had heard only beauty, they would not have taken the trouble to explore the method you were using.

Speaking of Jacobs, I have heard him in the recording with the CSO low brass, and I have heard him playing the same excerpts as a demonstration in a master class. In the latter case, he was using vibrato. In the former case, there was absolutely no hint of vibrato. But his demonstration was not intended to teach the audience how to play that excerpt, but rather to use a convenient melody that everyone in the audience knew to demonstrate his concept of song and wind.

For younger audiences, Bobo divides tuba music into two categories, "pirate songs" and "love songs". I use vibrato on the latter. Hint: I can think of only a tiny number of cases where a tuba player in a large ensemble is asked to play a love song.

Another hint: If your vibrato, as an effect, distracts you from the basic requirement of pitch, time, motion, and the shaping of the phrase, then it's too much, no matter what method you use. That is often true with me, and that's another reason I don't use it much, and when I do, only subtly.

I would add Floyd Cooley's The Romantic Tuba to Wade's list of role models on the subject.

One of the reasons I love Renaissance choral music as much as I do is that the vibrato is used sparingly or not at all, and when it is used, it is a definite intentional effect rather than a mindless default.

Rick "who has suffered from nerve-induced unintentional vibrato on occasion, to poor effect" Denney

"Jaw" vibrato. And only for color in solos.

The problem is that until one develops good support and a decent ear, then the use of brass vibrato is like the use of viola vibrato; even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

It has been my understanding that a daiaphragm vibrato is really activated in the throat. I am a professional singer as well as a tubist, and have always used what my first brass teacher called a "singers vibrato". I don't feel that this style of vibrato, in any way, puts additional pressure on my abdomen. And I don't feel that it restricts my airflow either. However, my first college professor, Toby Hanks at the Manhattan School of Music, did tell me that he would prefer that I didn't use this technique. I just found jaw and lip vibratos to be more difficult, and felt less natural.

Just my two cents.

Thanks,
Frank Ortega

Are you able to control the width, timing, and be able to change all aspects of the cycle while in use?

That's what always made the choice clear for me (and no, I don't sing, in fact, on many occasions I'm asked NOT to... )

BigDale wrote:As did all [Jacobs's] students [recommend jaw vibrato].

That is not the case. The early teacher I mentioned was a student of Jacobs. I'm not sure he was opposed to jaw vibrato, but that was not how he did it.

Rick "but he got the results" Denney

Roger Lewis wrote:I, personally, am not a fan of the diaphragm vibrato as it adds too much tension to the abdomen. When you inhale, everything expands down - until it reaches the muscle tension. I, again personally, find that I can get more air if I keep this area relaxed.

The jaw vibrato, again for me, is easier and I can vary it more to suit the piece or style of music in which I am playing.

One thing to remember:

Using vibrato is like zipping your pants in public....it's to be done discretely. If you use it on everything and begin to sound like an old school British euphonium player, then you just leave the audience wondering if you were able to actually play ANY of those notes in tune.

Just my $0.02

Roger

I have always used and advocated jaw vibrato too, but I find that on certain notes and situations (like the soft, held solo G at the end of the American in Paris solo) I can't use jaw vibrato without risking the loss of the note. Another technique, advocated by Jens Lindemann, that is worth fooling with, is that of gently nodding the head. This requires a good angle of approach to the mouthpiece, but gives the ability to create a (slow) vibrato without tightening the jaw or the embouchure

Michael Eastep

Well, I'm not qualified to argue with how brass instrument playing is taught, but there are musicians who use diaphragm (or breath) vibrato quite controllably and quite well. There ain't no jaw vibratos for flute players! And yes, flutists can turn their vibratos on and off, etc.

I spent years playing flute and recorders before coming back to tuba. Since my diaphragm vibrato worked as well on tuba as it did on flute, I couldn't see the necessity of switching techniques. Perhaps a jaw vibrato is easier to learn and control for a brass player who doesn't yet have any vibrato. If that were true, it would probably make excellent sense for a jaw vibrato to be the preferred method to be taught.

I suspect that brass teachers who so intensely disparage diaphragm vibratos never learned to do a good one. Perhaps because they were never flutists.

I'm in favor of whatever works well.

Cheers,
Allen

P.S. Speaking of vibratos, have you ever experienced a theatre organ's Tibia Clausa with a well-adjusted tremulant going? You'll still be vibrating an hour afterwards!

Ok, let me explain myself a bit more. I was NOT using vibrato in teh Wagner peice intentionally, believe me. I simply found myself at the point where I played everything with vibrato without realizing it.

Now I'm trying to break that habit, and it's not easy.

Mojo workin' wrote: I was taught "lip vibrato" by Rex Martin. Articulating "toe-woe-woe-woe" etc. Diaphragmatic vibrato has too much potential to alter the resonance of your sound, in my opinion.

It was with Rex that I was auditioning. I can only hope to be taught by him as well.

The poor air support came into play in the 2nd mvt of the Barnes concerto: using (attempting?) vibrato on the low G's, and my lack of support above the staff.


And I also find it irritating that I can't take band while in full honors. the schedule only prevents it senior year, and to compensate I'm taking an applied theory class (meaning I get to play) after school twice a week.

I do not have any problems turning on and off my vibrato.
I would never use vibrato in Bruchner, but I do when I play Gershwin's American in Paris. So, I don't believe anyone can say, never in Orchestral music! I've also never had any complaints about my tone quality, with or without the vibrato.
At least not in the last 15 or so years.
And I do not use a jaw vibrato.

All this and about a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

Frank Ortega

Frank Ortega wrote:So, I don't believe anyone can say, never in Orchestral music!

I believe we've said unless the line is a solo line, and we've made generalizations to make a point to the original poster.

But you're right, if you're getting your lessons from the 'net, you're bound to be disappointed!

the elephant wrote:I have toyed with the idea of buying a viola and getting 100% of my instruction from YouTubers. I could probably get into a major symphony that way!

I wasn't aware that prior instruction was required for playing viola in an orchestra...

the elephant wrote:I have toyed with the idea of buying a viola and getting 100% of my instruction from YouTubers. I could probably get into a major symphony that way!

Viola playing requires destruction.