TubeNet

Right folks - so I've been playing a lot of random jazz/folk/hip hop/soul/trad etc. gigs on tuba lately. I have a sousaphone but it's a junker and I'd like to get something that blows easy and in tune, as I'm kind of embarrassed to take my current model into professional situations. For now I've been playing basslines on my YFB-621, which works ok if I'm mic'd, but I think I need the deeper sound of a BBb sousa for some of the newer projects I'm getting involved in.

So - can anyone recommend a model of sousaphone? I'm an average-sized guy and don't want something monstrously heavy, I may need to wear it for the whole night. Are the fiberglass horns as bad as everyone says sound-quality wise?

Also, I'm wondering if anyone can recommend a store where I can go to try out a bunch of different models, hopefully somewhere with a lot of used horns in stock, that's within a day's drive of Toronto. Not really confident mail-ordering or ebaying. My budget is about $3K.

Thanks!

I have played much the same stuff as you list. More or less all kinds of different styles, in very different settings. The sousaphone I have is a good old Conn 14K. And I would recommend that to everybody.
It plays no matter what. If there is minus 20 degrees, or plus 50 degrees. I have been
in fights with it, had sand in the valves, dropped it, had people fall over it and people have thrown all kinds of stuff at it and into it. The valves are always tight and does not stick if you clean them once every ~50 gigs.
Only thing is that I keep mine in a gigbag at all times. And every year the supporting struts around the 3 valve tubing comes loose because of that. I had them soldered back on every year, but finally got some extra supports soldered on. That did the trick. Otherwise no complaints.

It can be a little heavy, but I got a custom shoulder pad made and I never had a problem with the weight again.
I had at one point an old fiberglass Conn 36K and that played equally well. The sound was not as good, but when playing out doors I don't think it matters. 95% of everybody will not be able to hear the difference. And you can always put a brass bell on the fiberglass body. That gives 90% of the brass sousaphone sound back but you save your back for some weight.

Some will probably say that you should have the first valve slide turned so you can pull it to play some of the low stuff in tune. I never bothered to have that done. I do not play that low when playing outside with no microphone anyway.

I think that all of this should be possible with you budget. Buy an old horn and have it mildly restored and buy a new gigbag. And you are set for life.................

I am a switch-hitter when it comes to the fiberglass vs. brass Sousaphone question. I have an old (but not too funky) 4 valve BBb Conn that I use when I know I won't be doing more than about 3 sets, and a very funky Olds 3 valve - see picture over there -> that I use for lots of other gigs. The brass horn sounds a bit better but it weighs a lot more. My fiberglass horn sounds OK to me and works well for the sort of music I play when I use it. However, the visual image is probably not what the bandleader wants for a Trad/Dixie gig...

For the kind of gigs you are looking at, I agree that bullet-proof valves and sturdy construction will be a big plus - no matter what brand you get. I would possibly avoid a short stroke/off-set valve system only because it can be a difficult "quick-lube" when the valves don't line up on re-insertion.

kontrabass wrote:So - can anyone recommend a model of sousaphone? I'm an average-sized guy and don't want something monstrously heavy, I may need to wear it for the whole night. Are the fiberglass horns as bad as everyone says sound-quality wise?

Old and American, for sure. The Conn 14K is the gold standard for 4/4 sousaphones, and it's really not much heavier than the 36K, which is basically the same instrument but with fiberglass branches. You can put a brass bell from an old 14K on it and restore some of the bell ring, but really the plastic sousaphone still does very nicely.

The King 2350 is also pretty decent, though a smaller-bored and a little more direct in its sound.

Taylor Music is the go-to source for refurbed sousaphones, though sometimes Harvey Hartmann will have one or two listed on ebay and the regular tuba stores will have an occasional sousaphone. Taylor's current price for a 14K is pretty high (it's a satin-silver model and probably fun to look at), but they also have a refurbed 36K at about half your budget. Ignore the new 36K--it's really a King with a Conn label. The 22K is a similar fiberglass model that looks pretty interesting. The Pan American is really a Conn 14K, and definitely worthy of consideration, as is the Reynolds, and probably the Martin (though I don't see a picture). All are within your budget. The Pan American is probably the best deal. Taylor's prices are not as good as you can get for sousaphones that show their age, but they are ironed out and spiffed up.

Just say no to Jupiter and Yamaha.

http://www.1800usaband.com/htmls/catvie ... egoryID=40

Rick "who has two 14K's with a total investment of $400" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:Just say no to Jupiter and Yamaha.

I would have to disagree. Yamaha sousaphones are fairly decent. The brass units are a bit "brighter" than other similar sized sousaphones. The fiberglass units are pretty decent and play fine. I have spent a lot of time on Yamahas, and while I would probably prefer a Conn, if a Yamaha came along in good condition at a good price it would be a viable alternative. "Try before you buy" is just as important with sousaphones as it is normal tubas, but the rule seems to be applied far less there.

My personal choice for stand-up or street gigs would be a helicon. The balance is heck of a lot better than a sousaphone and it's less likely to wear you down after the first three sets. Though not as easy to find as a sousa, I'm sure there is something out there that is within your budget.

I tried the Weril Sousaphone at ITEC when I talked to Dick Barth. That was a great horn! I would recommend it to anyone!

David Richoux wrote:.....a very funky Olds 3 valve - see picture over there ->

Hi David,

I have a fiberglass sousa, that I am considering having painted. Can you tell me what kind of paint you used, and what the problems associated with the process, are?

Anybody else had any experience with it?

Thanks!

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:

Rick Denney wrote:Just say no to Jupiter and Yamaha.

I would have to disagree. Yamaha sousaphones are fairly decent.

Where the Yamahas fall down is in the price/performance ratio. Which would you rather have, a merely competent Yamaha (if you can find one used) for $4000 or a Pan American 14K for half that, both in decently restored condition? (Or, using ebay prices, over $3000--the starting price for the one Yamaha available--versus $300-600 for 36Ks and $800-1500 for 14Ks, though I figured a guy willing to spend $3000 would not necessarily be looking for a dentophone.)

Rick "plus, the Conns and Kings have soul" Denney

Jedi Master wrote:Anybody else had any experience with it?

Paint it as you would a car. Same prep, same epoxy primer, same polyurethane paint, same guy holding the sprayer.

Rick "who will nevertheless not follow this advice when the time comes and attempt it himself" Denney

Jedi Master wrote:

David Richoux wrote:.....a very funky Olds 3 valve - see picture over there ->

Hi David,

I have a fiberglass sousa, that I am considering having painted. Can you tell me what kind of paint you used, and what the problems associated with the process, are?

Anybody else had any experience with it?

Thanks!

The first thing to decide when painting a bell is if you want it to be "permanent" or not. When I was playing with them, The Stanford Band tended towards not permanent, so they used water base tempera paints and refreshed the ones that were "keepers" over the years. I don't know if this is still their method

A light spray of clear-coat fixative (Krylon) will usually keep the paint from dissolving in rain, but it won't prevent chips and scratches. Depending on the smoothness of the plastic, you might need to lightly scrub the surface with fine sandpaper or something like a Scotch-brite pad.

This is probably the way for you to go, unless you are really sure of your design. I used a small projector to enlarge the Wally Wood (Mad Magazine) original and traced the image with a light pencil line. I decided to go with the more permanent Acrylic paint. This has held up pretty well since about 1986, only a few touch-ups have been needed.

When you are figuring out what to paint on your bell, remember to keep it simple and play with the curves and shadows that are going to be a problem anyway. Your bell will be moving and viewed from many different angles, usually at a great distance.

I would suggest that you NOT USE AUTOMOTIVE OR ENAMEL PAINTS unless you are experienced with them and you want a really, really permanent paint job.

TubaTinker wrote:My personal choice for stand-up or street gigs would be a helicon. The balance is heck of a lot better than a sousaphone and it's less likely to wear you down after the first three sets. Though not as easy to find as a sousa, I'm sure there is something out there that is within your budget.

Helicons are great for the reasons you mention, but I would add this: a lot of nightclubs have surprisingly low stage clearance (lights and other overhead junk) and if you are taller than average (like me) a Sousaphone will likely be hitting stuff as you play.

However, the directionality of the Helicon might be more of a problem - the sound projection to the side can get lost in some settings, so you have to turn sideways to the rest of the band (or use a mic.)

Sousaphones and tubas are becoming so "common" in some music scenes you won't get too many double-takes, but Helicons are much more rare - the ultimate cool stage presence!

TonyZ wrote:I tried the Weril Sousaphone at ITEC when I talked to Dick Barth. That was a great horn! I would recommend it to anyone!

I second this. I played a test mule at Midwest a couple of years ago and was impressed with it; if the final product is still good (which I assume) and the price is competitive, it's a real contender in the new Souzy market.

I am late coming to this discussion, but I agree with Rick Denney. The only souzy that will stand up over the long haul is a pre-Macmillian Conn or pre-UMI King. Yes, I've played most of the others mentioned. Occasionally there is a good Yammy out there, but for the most part their valves are not durable like the venerable old Conns and Kings.

Olds and Reynolds are basically the same souzy, and are based on the King design, which was developed by Reynolds when he worked for King before going out on his own, and will be very similar to the King, which the standard models have .687 bore.

An old Buescher, if in good shape, will work, if it hasn't been beaten to death. So would an old Martin, but there are so few of them left. As reknowned as York was for the tubas, I'm not so sure about the souzys.

Jupiters are still just plainly insufficient, in spite of the progress on their other lines of horns, which some are now to the point Yamaha was 30 years ago. I do confess I haven't tried the new Weril yet.

Just my observations of playing many different souzys over the last 30 years.

David Richoux wrote:I would suggest that you NOT USE AUTOMOTIVE OR ENAMEL PAINTS unless you are experienced with them and you want a really, really permanent paint job.

Yes. Though I do want to make a distinction between the polyurethane automotive paints used these days and the enamel paints used in decades past. Enamels are brittle and chip a lot. Polyurethanes generally are not.

But both require something more sophisticated than a rattle can, and yes they are permanent. I would have thought permanence would be an objective, but I hadn't (and should have) considered the "art tuba" notion of wanting to change it frequently.

Rick "who will go for permanence, but not for the art-tuba concept" Denney

Thanks for the replies, everyone. It sounds like the Conn 14k or King 2350 is what I'm after.

Part II of my question is where to find one. I'd like to avoid mail-ordering, and I live in Toronto. Rick, you recommended a shop whose physical address is a 2-day drive so a bit too far. Again, my ideal would be to drive less than 8 hours to find a place where I can try a few horns before buying.
I'm thinking WWBW in South Bend might be a good bet. I also found via google a place called Borodi Music near Cleveland that looks like it has a fair number of used Sousa's - anyone have any experience with that place? He has a 14k on e-bay at the moment.
Or should I be heading away from the midwest and towards the eastern seaboard?

Hello,
My $.02,
Try as many as possible, wherever you end up, maybe several different public schools(?)
The King tends to fit a little "tighter" than the older Conn's and Olds/Reynolds.
I suspect that a Jupiter would also fit tight due to the similarity of the "wrap" with the King.
The Olds/Reynolds already have the first valve top "loop" as a movable slide.
Older Conn 14K/Pan Americans are the lightest of the metal horns( lighter than several other Fiberglass models)
Kings are next, and the Olds/Reynolds that I have played have been the heaviest of the group.(Could be due to some horns had been overhauled and others were still original)
Sorry no information on Yamaha, or Jupiter(not enough time on either)
Good luck,
Dave Hayami