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My fellow users, I would like, need, respectfully request, HEEELLP, any comments you could or would like to make about playing a Sousaphone in a concert setting. I would REALLY like any fuel, I mean, comments that you would be willing to give. I can tell someone all the tendencies and playing characteristics, but coming from me it doesn’t mean as much. Just assume you are talking to a guitar player who knows nothing about playing the tuba/Sousaphone.

Thanks in advance

Duane
MU3 Holcomb
Navy Band New Orleans.

Depending on the horn you use, it's always nice to have a 1st valve slide for the left hand. You could probably have the slide flipped if necessary.

You might want to consider a Sousa chair as well. http://www.interstatemusic.com/webapp/w ... &langId=-1" target="_blank

I highly recomend having the valves professionally aligned. That involves measuring corks and felts above and under the valve caps.

Also, please use a good tuner on the horn. Many notes may be so far out of tune that you would not want to use it under any circumstances for concerts (other than strolling N'ollyeans-style gigs).

OK, here's my drill for playing a standard 3-valve souzy in concert band.

The first thing is that the best souzy for a concert band is a pre-Macmillian Conn. These are the only ones, in my not so humble opinion, that have the combination of intonation stability and sufficient mass to make a good concert instrument.

Now, on to the tuning. The next reason for these models is that you can have the upper valve slide loop converted to a movable slide for your left hand to use as on any good concert instrument. I've had it done to both of the souzys I've played in concert the last few years, and it really helps. I pull @ 1/2 to 5/8 inch for 1+2 to be in tune, somewhat over 1 inch for 1+3 to be in tune, and there's still some left to pull for 1+2+3 without having to lip too much.

Pull 3 and set it so that 2+3 is in tune. You don't need 3 alone except as a possible alternate or trill fingering since 1 is movable.

If you have to go that low, the "false" pedal Eb is usually in perfect tune, with only a touch of graininess on the 14K and variants, and is smooth enough nobody will know you don't have a 4th valve on the 20K and 38K and kin. For me, the 14K runs out of false pedals @ low C, but on the 38K, when I'm warmed up, I can go all the way down to true pedal BBb in good tone and tune.

On some of these, the 5th partials may be flat, as can happen on the 20K short-throw valve block with the narrowed ports; but the regular valve block is usually good to go with a minimum of fuss. If in converting the upper loop to a slide longer ferrules are needed, the corresponding amount may or may not need to be trimmed off the bottom loop to compensate after the 1st valve is re-checked for intonation. But it is definitely worth it.

Finally, maintenance. In addition to aligning the valves, which on a lot of the older souzys there is a ring engraved on the valve stem that when corked and felted properly will sit flush with the top of the valve cap, make sure your gooseneck, bits and mouthpiece are in good order so they fit together smoothly in order to avoid leaks and other nits that will get in the way of good intonation. Make sure the bell collar and tenon are a good match for ease of assembly. And go to your nearest home center, get a 6 1/2 foot long length of 5/16 inch clear plastic tubing, slit it lengthwise with an exacto knife, and fit it to the bell rim, letting it sit a day to equalize before you trim it to final length. It will double not only as a great ding protector, but will damp overring of the bell without dulling the tone.

The Cavalier (14K predecesor) and 38K both turned out so well with this treatment that I routinely use them in concert where projection (like on a curtained stage and high theatre ceiling that would soak up all the sound of a conventional upright bell) is an issue.

Ya’ll have been great so far. With my job I am usually playing the tuba while standing and holding the flip folder with the left hand. I wish I could set up the New Conn 20 J to use the left hand to move the main tuning slide with a “shtick”, that would fix most of the problems, but I can’t. I am getting flack over tuning a Sousa and just need advice and fuel. I AM going to show my command the suggestions and see what they say. It will not only show them I am trying but it will also show them investigating the situation. I am trying to tell someone that a trumpet pulls the first and third valve slides and I can’t. I am sorry about the tuning and sound of my “C” with a 1&3 combinations, and yes, I do know it is 30 cents sharp. (I don’t have to tell you that is one of many examples) And by the time I do lip it down (which is against most of what I learned in college) the tone isn’t going to be the same and loses its cartelistic sound. Any recommendations on what I could tell the “powers at be” above me? They are literally expecting a Sousaphone to play like a concert horn. And the 20J just doesn’t play like my 2196! LOL

Mike ICR, Dean E, and III Popes… thank you so much for your time!!!!!!!

Duane

Duane wrote:Any recommendations on what I could tell the “powers at be” above me? They are literally expecting a Sousaphone to play like a concert horn. And the 20J just doesn’t play like my 2196! LOL

Recognize that your colleagues in the premiere bands play sousaphones, and some of them are not the best sousaphones around. Yet they always seem to play in tune. It's best to adjust a slide, but if that isn't possible then you just have to buzz the right pitch and use your ears, even if it compromises the sound a bit. You know how it is.

Most three-valve Bb tubas are designed to be tuned such that the 1-3 combination is in tune for the low C. The Db 2-3 will then be a bit flat, and the 1-2-3 will be a bit sharp, but both within lipping range.

Further, some large sousaphones are like your 20J in that they play the third partial really flat (the 20K is an example). Thus, you'll need to play the F at the bottom of the staff 1-3, probably. The payback for suffering with this fault is that the fifth partial is often in tune (and, yes, I realize this is opposite of what iiiiiiiiiiiiipopes said, but that's my observation).

If the fifth partial is flat, which is often the case with tubas that have an in-tune F, you can play the C on the staff 1-3, the D 1-2, and the Db 2-3. Those use the sixth partial and will not be as flat.

If the upper end of the sixth partial (F, F#, and G on the staff) is sharp, you can play it on the seventh partial, which is normally quite flat. I usually find it easier to lift the pitch than to lower it when lipping.

My 14K sousaphone plays pretty well in tune (better than a 20K), and I use normal fingerings and I tune the third valve for the 1-3 low C and then lip. I need my left hand to stabilize the instrument and don't fiddle with the slides.

Yes, it's yet another approach, but you have to find what works on that particular instrument. And "what works" is the balance of compromises that let you lip the pitches into tune reliably.

Rick "assuming the instrument is in good playing order" Denney

I do a lot of work buzzing pitches with a piano and even spend a lot, and I mean a lot, of time with a tuner. I live with a tuner and metronome ever day during my worm up sessions. I can’t move the slides on the Sousaphone while playing it. I can move, and move quite often, the slides on the concert horn. I don’t like using false tones. I know the principle but it sacrifices tone. And have never needed to play past an F for any reason in Ceremonial Band. I have always been taught center the pitch and move the slide. I can sing the pitches, in tune with a tone producer/piano all day long. I tune the first and second slides individually. The third I tune to Db. My F# above that is flat (really flat… and if I tune to it the Db is so far out that it isn’t even doable.) And my F# below isn’t a problem. I play most of my D’s 3 and G’s 1&2. My 1&3 F isn’t a problem. I can tell you that when the horn is tuned to the 4th partial that the 3rd and 2nd partials are out of tune. (noticeable) 1&3 C is sharp and lets not even talk about the 1,2&3 B. I have tried every mouthpiece I own in the horn and the best one, over all for tuning, is the Conn 18 that came with the horn. I still think that one is funny. I have even rewritten parts in “Eternal Father” in the 5 and 6 measures because of the 123 B’s that are involved. It has been a nightmare. What is funny is the Brass Quintet makes the comments that I do play in tune with the BQ and that my ears do work. It isn’t that I don’t spend time with the Sousaphone, there are just a few notes I can’t really fix. I don’t know what the DC bands and playing on, but I do know that their budget/funding isn’t attached to ours in the slightest. (From what I have been told they play on four valve Conn's, but I could be totally wrong.) From what I have been told they have had to do that because of fleet cuts backs. I can tell you that my Chief is a guitar player and doesn’t understand lipping or anything about brass instruments. I can hear the problems and can even fix most of them, but the 1&3 and 1,2&3 combination C’s and B’s are just my nemeses. . I have even rewritten parts in “Eternal Father” in the 5 and 6 measures because of the 123 B’s that are involved. It has been a nightmare. I am not trying to nuc it, I am just trying to explain a few things I obviously missed. But that is OK, this post has given me sever things to think about that just might help.

It is hard trying to explain to a Chief, who plays guitar, that I don’t have 1 and 3 valve slides like a trumpet to pull on the Sousaphone. Can I lip it… yes… but I can’t do it at the start of the note or I will actually drop partials. The tone also loses its tambour and then that starts a whole another can of worms. It is also an interesting fact that I am the only musician in the band that isn’t playing on a “professional horn.” I think my .02 is that I am playing the cheapest horn in the room. I am not looking for an excuse to play out of tune, I am just trying to do my homework.

I have contacted a few fleet tuba players today and they have helped… I was just looking for more advice. That is were this post came from. Thanks for the help. If you have something to add, please don’t hesitate… Please…

To each his own my friend. I guess I am just lucky.

Hey Rick -- different instruments and their different bugle characteristics may very well behave differently, as you have noted. My Besson is spot on all over the board, but of course, being a 3-valve, it only goes to low E nat, and for some reason the "false" partials on it are next to non-existant. So every horn is different.

I took the replies to heart and have spent quite a bit of time with all the Sousaphone we have here. Found the best one I could play in tune and I am doing LOTS better. The one I was playing on was a real dog for tuning and has now been dubbed the “Brass Band” tuba. I just wanted to say thank you so much to everyone who posted and sent me PM’s. As wet behind the ears as I am with the Sousy I just went and tried all the suggestions… lets be honest, I didn’t have anything to loose. LOL. I later found out that my command was very impressed that I went as far as I did tying to fix the problem.

Sincerely

Duane
Tuba/Bone/Euph
Navy Band New Orleans.