TubeNet

When letting someone you don't know have a trial period with your horn, what is the typical protocol? I'm talking collateral.

I suggest that you as the seller require cash or a U.S. Postal Service (NOT a "mom and pop" one) money order for the full purchase price. That way if the "buyer" runs off with your tuba (it has happened) or if it goes missing in transit (if you ship it...this has also happened), you are protected from being left with nothing.

If you really want to get serious, draft some sort of contract, sign it, and have it notarized. Send a copy along to the potential buyer to sign, notarize, and return BEFORE you send them the tuba. Include things like condition of the tuba, what happens if it is damaged, purchase price, trial period length, etc.

In all cases, I suggest being able to verify the identity of your potential buyer...as in make sure you know their name, address, phone number, email, etc. Talk to them on the phone...don't just try to wheel and deal over email. If at all possible, meet them in person to do business.

I'm not trying to make the selling process difficult or make your or anyone else paranoid about selling things...just make sure you cover your bases before you send off something you aren't willing to lose.

Also, if shipping is involved and the person decides to NOT buy the tuba, then that person should pay shipping both ways.

The only thing I question about the money order is that if I'm the buyer and I decide to NOT buy the tuba, even if the money order is returned to me, how does that work? Isn't that essentially a pre-paid check payable only to someone else? (Different than voiding a personal check.)

bort wrote:
The only thing I question about the money order is that if I'm the buyer and I decide to NOT buy the tuba, even if the money order is returned to me, how does that work? Isn't that essentially a pre-paid check payable only to someone else? (Different than voiding a personal check.)

Good point.

Do NOT accept a "I'll return the money orders you sent" line from anyone regarding money orders. They just don't work that way, so yes...they are only payable (like a check) to the person named, though money orders work more like cash in the sense that they are pre paid.

So...

If you don't buy the tuba, I suppose that the seller would need to issue a new set of money orders back to the buyer for the amount originally sent.

I think a seven day trial period is reasonable. Most people do not know exactly what they want and seven days is a reasonable amount of time to determine if you can live with an instrument vs. dealing with the newness.

The financial advice given in the posts above has been good.

I once sent a tuba to the tubist of a highly respected, much recorded American orchestra and didn't hear a word in response for six months (this was before computers, mind you). Finally, after leaving a message on his answering machine saying that I was about to make a personal visit, he returned the horn, still never communicating, he just sent the horn.

I later learned he'd used it on the orchestra's six week European tour. Apparently, he didn't want to take a chance damaging his horn while on tour so he used mine.

Moral: don't fully trust anyone in a transaction. I tried to modify this statement a dozen ways, I'd have to stick with it as is, for a general rule.

bloke wrote:
1/ payment in full (hard funds / no paypal)
2/ 48 hr. to 60 hr. trial period (48 hr. being preferred)

_________________________________________
1/ This cuts w-a-y down on fraud and b.s.
2/ If someone cannot determine whether the instrument that I have for sale is appropriate for them in ten minutes or so, I'm not sure that they are capable of making this decision in ten weeks. Additionally, the longer an instrument sits around at a buyer's location, the more likely it is to be damaged. Finally, the longer an instrument sits around at a buyer's location, the more likely it is that a "trusted expert" (possibly with an agenda) will talk the buyer into *not* buying the instrument.

Very good advice here.


To the OP:
Insist on cash in hand before the tuba leaves your hands.

As for length of trial, a few days is long enough in a private sale.

Although I was the one to bring it up, you can do contracts and all kinds of things to "safe guard" yourself, but ultimately it just takes luck for your tuba not to come back with a new scratch or dent after being out on trial.

the elephant wrote: Tuba Selling Contract Language (taken from another TubeNet post - probably searchable)

Buyer agrees to render payment in full of the listed purchase price to initiate the trial period. Once funds are secured, the Buyer will have 10 (ten) business days to try the instrument [having already defined the instrument by maker, model and ser. #, as well as photo documentation of condition at time agreement commences]. The instrument must be returned within the time specified or Buyer forfeits 10% of the full purchase price without further claim and agrees to take no measure to seek remedy or reimbursement. If the Instrument is returned in a timely fashion and in the same condition delivered, 100% of the full purchase price will be returned to Buyer. Should the Instrument be returned in damaged condition, Seller will seek one estimate for the cost of repairing said damage, and will then withold that amount plus 10 (ten) per cent of the full purchase price. Buyer will make no claim against Seller if damage has been done, and agrees to make no claim against Seller. Any claims of damage done in shipping will be between Buyer and Shipper only to settle.

Elephant, I like your eschrow idea and I like the terms of your contract but the wording above is leaky. I had an attorney draw up a sales agreement several years ago and I use that. It is pretty detailed. I don't use it with people I know, but with strangers it protects us both.

One rule in force in all states, a contract must be dated and signed to be legal. If there are no dates or no signatures, the "contract" is a only a piece of paper.

the elephant wrote:One word: Escrow.

Not on my watch. I'll tell you why. Those escrow services are not mediators. A bank knows nothing about a tube. Using an escrow service leaves the door open to too many 'extra' conditions that might pop up. Knowing that I'll get paid only after the buy is totally satisfied with any changes he decides he wants to make on the horn or opportunity to haggle price is not good.

There's only ONE way to sell a tuba. Cash up front for the tuba AND the transportation cost. Give the buyer a reasonable period to evaluate the horn... two weeks should be more than adequate. If he chooses to send it back, a refund less any currency exchange costs and the freight both ways is in order.

For a private sale, I see no need for a trial period. Assuming you are buying a used tuba (which is always the case with a private sale), and assuming you are paying a fair price, you can sell it for the same price if you decide you don't want it. Then, you can try it out for as long as you want, and sell it if you don't like it. In fact, paying a price you think you could get is a good test of whether the price is fair.

I would never ship a tuba without cash up front, except to someone I know and trust. There are perhaps three or four tuba players that fall into that category, and they have all proven themselves with me. With someone you trust at that level, just work something out. I'm assuming you're talking about someone who has not proven that trust (yet).

Now, what a business might choose to do for an approval process is different. For one thing, they can check your credit rating. For another thing, they still get payment up front (a credit-card imprint or a check). And they have insurance and a wide array of legal avenues to explore if the buyer screws them. Even then, things go bad (as we have seen recently). They may decide that providing that service is the cost of doing business, and I assure you that they can get higher prices because of that.

I have tested this concept myself in recent days, by buying a 6-valve B&S F tuba when I already had a 5-valve model. Choosing between them has not been a trivial task, and I am glad of the extended time to test it in all my playing situations, and to also test my regard for it over many weeks. But I got the instrument and not the guy in front of me in line because I was willing to buy it outright.

Rick "who doesn't buy from just anybody, either" Denney

.