TubeNet

You have to start listening to recordings of orchestras sometime. Now is as good a time as any. Listen to recordings of the big American orchestras, especially the CSO from the Reiner period, and compare that with German and Austrian orchestras.

But the difference is only partially captured in recordings. When Mike Sanders switched from his Alexander to his Yorkbrunner, the sound changed profoundly, but I'm not sure it would have sounded all that much different on a recording. The reason is that the way the sound approached me in the audience was as much a part of it as anything. The adjectives that come to mind are emotional rather than physical--his sound on the Alex was powerful and indimidating. On the Yorkbrunner, it was, well, friendly. The Alex sounded like it was coming at me from over there, and the Yorkbrunner sounded like it was right here. The Alex was came at me, the Yorkbrunner was there with me. The Alex looked at me from a distance through slit eyes, and the Yorkbrunner walked right up with wide eyes and shook my hand. It's a matter of presence as much as anything and the way the sound is sprayed from the instrument and reflected in the hall. And I think the propagation in the hall, related to our spatial sense (which is hard to record) is as much at the root of the perceived difference as the harmonic content.

Given the above description, you would think the difference pretty subtle if it's that hard to describe. But you would be wrong. Mike tells the story that when he first brought his Yorkbrunner to rehearsal and played his first note, several in the string section stopped playing and turned around to see what had changed.

So, I suspect the process of hearing the difference will most effectively start at an orchestra hall near you.

Rick "wondering if Wade, who has experienced this change recently, has better words" Denney

Roger Bobo and Harvey Phillips

Yes, Bobo is the example of the "power" sound ("German," I guess). He played various Miraphone models (German) on many of his most noted solo and orchestral recordings.

I have not listened to a lot of Harvey Phillips recordings, but would suggest Arnold Jacobs for the "American" sound concept.

This is just what I hear, nothing more but I hear the quintassential "American" sound from Arnold Jacobs, especially on those aforementioned Reiner recordings. Incredibly dark, broad, and a kind of turbulence in the sound. More gutteral, in a good way ' if you will . And the shining example of a German sound, although produced by a American player to my ear is Chester Schmitz on his Alexander. Still very dark but very smooth and some more higher overtones. Not quite as broad. Mabye more projection. Two genius players, two very different horns, the York, short wrap, huge throat, piston valves. The Alexander, tall, narrower throat, rotory valves. That being said of course any player can make any horn sound the way they want it to. But to me, those two guys, on those two horns personify the difference between those two sounds (American and German) and they are both a joy to listen to. Ed

It appears the OP is looking for a beginning point to start listening to the differences, and would benefit, at this point, from solo recordings.

So, I'd suggest starting with the classic solo recordings of Bobo and Phillips, then move on from there to ensemble and orchestra recordings, with other players.

I think there are tons of very good players who got their beginnings of tonal concepts listening to the classic Bobo and Phillips recordings. I could think of a lot worse starting points.

dgpretzel wrote:Just wondering what this German/American sound thing, which I see used frequently, and in regard to individual instruments, means at that level.

If words could describe it clearly, you'd already get it. But if words could describe it, we wouldn't need the resulting sounds. So, you just have to expose yourself to those sounds before it will make any sense to you. Otherwise, it's like describing the difference between red and blue to someone blind from birth. But here's another try: American tubas have a rounder tone with more room-filling presence, and German tubas have a more insistent tone with more projection.

Go to a tuba conference or a store. Play (in a large room, but during a quiet moment) a York-style instrument, like a Nirschl or a Yorkbrunner or a PT-606 (Or a King 2341 if you play Bb). Then, play a Fafner (Bb again) or a Rudy Meinl or a PT-1. Use the mouthpiece you are used to. Try to compare tubas of similar size. If you can't hear the difference, then maybe there isn't a difference for you. If you don't trust your own playing, then get your teacher to participate in your experiment.

Most tubas have traits of each and the two groups overlap. The York Master that I recorded is an American concept but it has a strong German accent. And the Miraphone is German, all right, but not in the same way that an Alex or a Rudy Meinl is German.

For recorded differences from soloists, compare Oystein Baadsvik with Pat Sheridan. But most modern soloists are using British or German tubas, mostly because the American-style instrument is a contrabass concept and soloists usually use bass tubas. So, get an old recording of Chester Schmitz playing the Jabba the Hut solo on the Phillips CD "Out of this world" (no longer in print, alas), and compare that with Gene Pokorny playing the York on a CSO recording.

Rick "who has to hear the sound bounce back from the room to evaluate it while playing" Denney

bubbacox wrote:The whole "German" vs. "American" sound thing can be more attributed to the tuba, not the performer, I would think. Surely a talented American playing a good German tuba would have a "German" sound - or would he?

I do not agree, especially from the "american" side of the sound. Arnold Jacobs sounded as light and bouncy on a Rudy Meinl as he did on his Holton or York.

I have noticed, from many comparison hearings with excellent tubists, that a particular player has the same basic sound quality regardless of the instrument is being played. Yes, the horn has an effect but player "X" still sounds like player "X" on a Miraphone, Cerveny, Holton or Conn.

Yes, there is another thread somewhere on the board but... my description of the two sounds is that the "German sound" has a lot of fundamental in the sound, some mid-range overtones and no high overtones to speak of. The "American" sound has a strong fundamental but with the strong presence of mid and high overtones. It is a very colorful sound and typifies the tuba as a seperate instrumental color in the orchestra, rather than as a support for the basses or as a fourth or fifth trombone.

Ron Bishop produced a fine characteristic German sound, in my opinion, as did Chester Schmidt in his Alexander days. But both played with more power than any German orchestral tubist at the time. Roger Bobo payed the "West Coast Sound" as far as I know, it was not a German sound by any stretch of the imagination.

Now there are many fine tubists who blend characteristics of both into their playing.

If my spring break didn't end today, I would make a recording with my two Eb's...the first is a large York, and the other is a 4v rotary german Alex stencil...i think those can demonstrate the difference as well as anything else.
...if I have time before leaving

Sound is in your head. While a horn has a big influence on the sound you want to produce, I don't think you have a german sound from playing a german tuba or vice versa. I am an american studying/working in Germany, and I play german tubas. I used to own a hirsbrunner C tuba before that. I haven't heard american orchestras live as much as i've heard german orchestras live, but the sound IS noticeably different. I think a lot of it has to do with all of the other brass instruments as well. The horns mostly play Alexanders, the Trombones a lot of times play german trombone(but only in certain groups) and the trumpets play rotary german trumpets. I think this has a big influence on the tuba sound as well. I believe german sound is a wall of sound which blends together into one huge section while still being able to project very well. I do think the american sound is a bit clearer though and would work better in a lot of chamber music situations. I have to say, I worked for a very long time(and still do every day) on my sound to try to blend in here. All I can say is...after hearing my teacher, I fell in love(with his sound! , and that's why i'm still here today.

I would love a one right after the other same player comparison of the two. From the playing examples I've heard this is what it sounds like to me. Because what the hell does "more fundamental" sound like, lol. To me the German sound is raspy. Like you can hear the buzz almost, compact and aggressive. Where the American sound is smooth, with no rasp and you can't hear any semblance of buzz. All you hear is tone. The American sound is directionless, it's all around you. Where the German sound is in your face and directional.

Even with all these descriptions of sound, you still have to here it to know the difference.

After playing a 186 in Community Band for a Year and then getting my 2341, I heard the difference immediate upon playing the King. To me it is a much better sound for blending with an ensemble. To provide a solid foundation for the band/orch without sticky out.

I have been watching this topic up to this point and have decided to chime in, I am a big fan of the Jacobs sound and I think I would be a fan of that sound no matter what horn it came out of...but I am not totally sure what the difference in tone is. I see that I am not alone in that unsure-ness, as most people have had a hard time explaining the difference. I have heard the phrase "column of sound" to describe the Germanic sound. I've yet to play an American style horn and I want to bounce over to WW&BW to spend a day comparing. I would really enjoy playing both back to back in an ensemble but I don't have any friends around that play "American style" horns. I do play a German rotary horn that'll "reach out and grab ya" I enjoy playing it everyday but would be thrilled to play and American horn for a day or two. I enjoy watching this topic and seeing words thrown around like "dark" "rich" "full" "vibrant" "colourful." My favorite is "dark" a term that is impossible to describe in everyday words, I am just as guilty for throwing these words around to! . What I believe is that you can hear two horns side by side and like/hate it but when you use words to describe that sound it's not so much the sonic aspect of the tone it's how that tonality makes you feel. It's more of an emotional response than anything(of course that is my opinion). I haven't listened to many German orchestras but I'm going to start digging some up tonight.

Maybe this will be the start of having a 'German' style CC, and an 'American' style horn in the stable just for when the "mood" strikes you

I just exchanged my 2340 King for a Mira 186 and made some comparisons before they went their respective ways. Both of these could be said to be 'classic' American and German 4/4 BBb horns respectively. Both horns had upright bells. I used the same mouthpiece with each.

I liked both sounds and kind of wished I would have been able to keep the 2340 for use with its recording bell although my 186 has a detachable bell and I could get a recording bell if I wanted one.

I have a bit of a hard time explaining the difference between the sound but I think the 2340 had a 'fluffier' or 'wider' sound while the 186 had a 'sharper edged' and 'more direct' sound.

Like I said, I liked both sounds but they were distinctly different.