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About eight years ago I stopped playing to concentrate on starting my own business. Now I've decided to make the time and start again. The problem is, when I stopped, I was in the process of finding a mouthpiece for my 1955 Salvationist Publishing, 3+1 Eb monster Bass. Over the years I've parted with all but a few of my *good* mouthpiece so now the only one that fits is the original and that just doesn't work. The receiver is quite small, my DW2 doesn't seem to seat properly and the others (stardard shank) only get in about 1/8". I think I was using an Eb Kosikup on it. I'm hoping to play this horn for quintets and other small ensembles and maybe some soloing. Apart from that, all I know is that I tend to prefer a smaller, heavier mouthpiece. Can any of you offer any suggestions to suit?

Thanks in advance!

Kosikup mouthpieces were common with British brasses, when I started out in 1960. They don’t appear to be common any more.

What puzzles me is that the DW2 doesn’t fit well, as the DW-non-L series should all have stems made for the old British small tuba receivers. Are you sure that there are no damages or no dirt obstructing a proper seat?

The Eb tubas of that era had 15" bells, when they came from Besson/Boosey & Hawkes. They could sound monstrously ugly when overblown, yet I wouldn’t call them monsters. Does your Eb bass have a larger bell?

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:What puzzles me is that the DW2 doesn’t fit well, as the DW-non-L series should all have stems made for the old British small tuba receivers. Are you sure that there are no damages or no dirt obstructing a proper seat?

I thought that too. The original mp fits well but the DW's shank is significantly longer than that. It feels like it gets to the end of the receiver and stops before the tapers can match up. It grabs at the leadpipe end but wiggles at the open end.

The bell is 17" wide. Not the biggest but still a bit of a beast. The original mp has EEb MON. on it, as did the Kosikup and the Salvation Army, when contacted for details, referred to it as a Monster bass.

17" bells never were standard on British Eb basses until the 983 and 980 entered the scene not much more than 15 years ago. The term of Monster and that 17" bell gives me a suspicion that the US branch of the SA issued some inspiration to the maker on the UK home-ground of the SA.

The original as well as the Kosikup mouthpieces being marked as made for the Monster introduces another potential reason for the bad fit of the DW2: the taper is faster than the Morse 1:20 ratio.

Continental European makers used to have their own tapers. Even today the horn hasn’t been as standardised on this matter as has the trumpet.

Cutting the tip off your DW2 will solve no problems. You could see if a repairman could measure the taper of that special receiver and then turn the mpc stem for a proper fit.

My own somewhat pragmatic approach rather would be to make a narrow sleeve out of duct tape to be placed, where the opening of the receiver meets the stem, when the mouthpiece is as far in as possible. That would take care of the wiggling. If this works you might make a more permanent sleeve out of sheet brass.

Klaus

Kosi-cup mouthpieces were the sought after mouthpieces in the 60s and early 70s, and the Salvation Army did sell its own mouthpiece, called the Rangefinder, which had avery nice looking gold plated rim. I can't recall if they made one for tuba, or for that matter if they were any good, but it would be match for rhe triumphonic.

imperialbari wrote:17" bells never were standard on British Eb basses until the 983 and 980 entered the scene not much more than 15 years ago. The term of Monster and that 17" bell gives me a suspicion that the US branch of the SA issued some inspiration to the maker on the UK home-ground of the SA.

I've been told two different stories on the subject. They both come directly from the SA headquarters. I was first told that the 15" bells were standard on the 3v versions and the 17" bells standard on the 3+1 versions. I don't think that was the case. I was later told that my horn may have been special ordered with the 17" bell. One FACT is that my horn, and five others, were hand made (I'm not sure what parts or to what extent) by one man named D. Loftouse, I know nothing about him, in July of 1955. One (mine) came to Canada, two went to the US, one went to Australia and the others stayed in the UK.

imperialbari wrote:The original as well as the Kosikup mouthpieces being marked as made for the Monster introduces another potential reason for the bad fit of the DW2: the taper is faster than the Morse 1:20 ratio.

That seems logical. If that is the case, are mps still available with the 'monster' shank?

imperialbari wrote:Cutting the tip off your DW2 will solve no problems. You could see if a repairman could measure the taper of that special receiver and then turn the mpc stem for a proper fit.

I considered that. I happen to be a tech and I have the equipment to do it but, I'm not particularly fond of the DW2 in this case and I would rather not 'ruin' and otherwise perfectly good mp. I'm hoping to find a product line that offers a shank size that will fit. I'm willing to get something custom made and/or shave down a shank or two but I'd rather save those options for last resorts.

Belltrouble wrote:Could you measure the diameter of the original mp and the DW 2 at the shank end ?

The end on the shank on the SA: 0.522"
About 0.9" up the shank (where the scuff marks are where it stops in the receiver): 0.465"

The end of the DW: 0.540
About 0.9" up the shank (even though the scuffs are 1.05" up the shank): 0.478

If you are a tech, you would be able to adapt just about any stem to the monster. I don’t think you will find current models that will fit without modifications. But the old stock sales from retailers do come up with some surprising items in between.

DW is the most commonly known supplier of small shank moutpieces, but Bob Tucci sells smal shank versions of at least some of the PT models also. Bach possibly will put any stem on their models, if you cough up sufficiently. Mike Finn has another shop modifying the stems of his models if customers want so. Bloke will supply a small stem version of his piece, if you order it. He will not do the modification himself, but his specialist contractor will do the modification in the original production process.

Klaus

I think, instead of modifying every mp I try, I might fashion a small brass bushing for the receiver. Now that that is settled, what should I be shopping for? Again, I'd like to use the horn for small ensemble work and some soloing. Small shank suggestions are best. Any suggestions?

Mike-ICR wrote:I think, instead of modifying every mp I try, I might fashion a small brass bushing for the receiver. Now that that is settled, what should I be shopping for? Again, I'd like to use the horn for small ensemble work and some soloing. Small shank suggestions are best. Any suggestions?

Well, I didn't like the DW 2L either, but I do like the DW 5. It's fairly deep for a small mouthpiece, with more of a funnel profile than the 2.

But your small shank options are limited, as you know. Some owners of old Eb tubas solve that problem with modifications, but rather than modify each mouthpiece as has been discussed here, they opt to replace the receiver with a normal one.

My choices tend to be slightly larger than the choices of most players for any given instrument that I have come by. Just to indicate my biases.

The one of my tubas, which comes closest to that SA horn of yours, would be the 981 and possibly the 26K & 28K. For them I use the Mike Finn 3H for wide range, wide dynamics, and good control. I bought it for my larger basses, where it took the wealth of sound out of of the BBb contrabasses. The shallower 5H might be the real thing for you.

On my very small Besson from 1870, I use the DW4 without being too happy about the restrictions of sound and dynamics. The best sound I heard on that tuba was not by me, but by fellow tubenetter Søren, who used a shaved down Conn Helleberg. My next try will be my incoming blokepiece bought for my Boosey F. I used to worry about using large stem mouthpieces on small stems. That concern has been diminished to the merely mechanical problem that they come off a bit too easily. But then my small receivers appear to have the Morse taper so that there is no wiggling.

Klaus

Edit: I first wrote DW2, but it was the DW4.

Donn wrote:Well, I didn't like the DW 2L either, but I do like the DW 5. It's fairly deep for a small mouthpiece, with more of a funnel profile than the 2.

Interesting, I noticed that the original is more funnel shaped than the others. I don't use that piece because of the very wide rim. Are funnel shape mps a common choice for bass tubas? Should I be looking for a relatively narrow, deep and funnel shaped cup?

Mike-ICR wrote: Interesting, I noticed that the original is more funnel shaped than the others. I don't use that piece because of the very wide rim. Are funnel shape mps a common choice for bass tubas? Should I be looking for a relatively narrow, deep and funnel shaped cup?

No, actually I think funnel shaped mouthpieces are a somewhat unusual choice for bass tuba. What's common is shallow - as you probably have noticed, at least mouthpiece makers tend to promote their shallower models for F/Eb. And just as a broad generalization, they tend to be not so funnel shaped. Maybe one or two in kind of intermediate shape, like the Schilke 62.

I wouldn't really be a good person to guess what will work for you - my ambition with the tuba is mainly to make pitched fart noises, no brass quintet work for me.

I've got a Triumphonic 3+1 with a 15" bell. It was originally a low pitch model that Dillon's cut a bit to play at A=440. They also installed a standard receiver. I tried a DW3 and loved the sound, but had trouble with the pitch going flat on notes above the staff. A Schilke 66 seems to give me about 95% of the sound I liked with the Wick, better intonation (perhaps because of the smaller throat?), and a more comfortable rim (at least for me). If I want a sound closer to what I think of as an orchestral bass tuba sound, a Loud LM-9 works well. If you want to keep your original receiver Schilke should be able to make you a 66 with a smaller shank.