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Hi all

I mentioned this horn in the For Sale forum (not selling it now.)
It is a small Eb, high pitch 3 piston valve Helicon. The maker's mark is very worn and I can only guess a few letters. Jean Marlbau, Paris, maybe?
Nothing very much like this name in my 5th edition Langwill index nor on the Horn-u-copia.net list.
The valves are all the same - and it has an interesting cross-brace below the valve cluster, but it probably was not a very expensive horn.

Any ideas?

My New Langwill has a

Marbeau, Tera BI fl Lyon 19c.
?Dealer.
MARK: 'Tera Marbeau / Lyon, Paris'
LOCATION: alto horn: US-CA-San Francisco [2 examples].

Could be a hit! I will look at the mark again (sorry, it was a lousy picture...) next time I have the horn out. Maybe a rubbing would be better than a photo.

:

That last image of the maker's mark is confirmation enough for me.

Thanks!

That old engraving on the Eb tuba from my galleries is hard to read, so I took a try in my lesser-than-photoshop application:

I know that is it labeled what it is. However I must note that the ferrules, bracing and the valves are very similar to my Couesnon so I wonder if it is a brand made by them. I may be completely wrong. Here is my horn for comparison.

So the "Tera Marbeau, Paris" mark is more likely a stencil - put on by the dealer? The "New Langwell" does not exactly say they made the horns...

The valve cluster on mine is much simpler than the Couesnon and the larger joints are also simpler. (My Helicon only has one large joint, so that might not be a fair comparison.)

Here is another view:

David Richoux wrote:So the "Tera Marbeau, Paris" mark is more likely a stencil - put on by the dealer? The "New Langwell" does not exactly say they made the horns...

The valve cluster on mine is much simpler than the Couesnon and the larger joints are also simpler. (My Helicon only has one large joint, so that might not be a fair comparison.)

Here is another view:

Eb Helicon valve view 2.jpg

There must be two generations Marbeau, Tera and Jean, without me being able to tell who was first.

Aside from the full stencil scheme, there is the situation very much known from southwestern Saxony. One maker for bells, one for valve systems, one for mouthpieces, and several workshops doing the final assemblies under their own names.

Making valves especially pistons takes an investment in machinery hardly affordable for minor makers. Couesnon may very well have been the supplier of valve blocks for Marbeau.

This present valve block looks like an attempt to do for the large brasses, what some student model trumpets do: no mixing up of valves, as all casings and pistons are identical. Also cheaper to make. Only the airpath may not be as ideal as with other wraps.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:
There must be two generations Marbeau, Tera and Jean, without me being able to tell who was first.

Aside from the full stencil scheme, there is the situation very much known from southwestern Saxony. One maker for bells, one for valve systems, one for mouthpieces, and several workshops doing the final assemblies under their own names.

Making valves especially pistons takes an investment in machinery hardly affordable for minor makers. Couesnon may very well have been the supplier of valve blocks for Marbeau.

This present valve block looks like an attempt to do for the large brasses, what some student model trumpets do: no mixing up of valves, as all casings and pistons are identical. Also cheaper to make. Only the airpath may not be as ideal as with other wraps.

Klaus

My Helicon is so worn around the markings I cannot tell if it is a "Tera" or a "Jean" - I was guessing "Jean" but the letter shapes are very similar, could go either way.

The horn does play a bit stuffy and it is hard to play all the notes in tune. I think it would take a lot of work to make it play in Low Pitch nicely. It looks good (and it is light) but it is more of a collector piece - not a great performance horn!

We have Tera from the book. The first name on the sample from my galleries definitely was by a Jean. And the last letter of the first name on your sample is an n. My idea of a smaller independent maker buying the valve section and maybe the bell from Couesnon comes very muchcomes from there being 2 generations.

Danish brass making continued until around 1943 in the 5th and 6th generations of I. K. Gottfried (aside from some lur replicas made until around 1985). The valve sets were bought in Markneukirchen, where brass production continued well into WWII because Germany never had expected to loose the war.

Lewis of Chicago is a respected horn designer and maker. From where does he get his valve sets and his bells? Germany.

Some of Conn’s pre-WWII horns more or less came as kits out of Germany with Conn doing the assembly and nothing more. That scheme was a circumvention of US custom practises, which put a high duty on assembled instruments.

The boundaries between independent makers and stencil importers/retailers are anything but clearcut.

Klaus