Two tubas for Walkure?

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:22 am

Can anyone confirm if there are two tuba parts in Wagner Walkure (the opera) and if so what's the 2nd part like?

I have never heard of 2nd tuba in Walkure, but have just got asked about playing for a gig.

cambrook · Post by **cambrook** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:51 am

We did a concert performance of Act 3 of Walkure a year or so ago, as far as I recall the brass orchestration is:

8 Horns
2 Tenor Wagner Tubas
2 Bass Wagner Tubas
1 Contrabass Tuba
3 Trumpets
1 Bass Trumpet
4 Tenor-bass Trombones
1 Contrabass Trombone

Perhaps the confusion arises from the "Bass Wagner Tubas" - the Wagner tuba was originally in two forms: the B-flat, tenor Wagner tuba and the F-natural, bass Wagner tuba. The contemporary Wagner Tuba is a double instrument, which can play in both B-flat and in F-natural. Therefore, the tenor Wagner tuba and the bass Wagner tuba have been combined into a single instrument.

Cheers,

Cam

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:01 am

Cam, The orchestration which you list is very much what I thought it was. However the request has come to me from the conductor himself who is something of a Wagner specialist having conducted a complete Ring cycle before and I know is quite aware about Wagner tubas - so am quite mystified

cambrook · Post by **cambrook** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:29 am

Who knows why a conductor might ask for 2 tubas? - it's better that they ask for more tubas than less!

Perhaps he wants more bass in the balance of the brass, or maybe the contrabass trombone player is a bit challenged in the volume department?
Does he want another contrabass tuba, or a bass tuba to augment the Wagner tuba section? I once played with the Israel Phil on tour, Zubin Mehta wanted the 4th Wagner tuba part to be judiciously augmented in Bruckner 7. It was quite a challenge, but a great experience to sit in front of the "real" brass section

Have fun whatever happens!

Cam

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:35 am

I was thinking maybe he wants one tuba sitting with the trombones and one with the Wagner tubas to play with each group respectively? I saw that done by Simon Rattle in Bruckner 7. Both tubas played in the big tuttis.

eupher61 · Post by **eupher61** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:57 am

Maybe he wants someone besides you playing??

(ducking to avoid a flying Neptune)

Dan Satterwhite · Post by **Dan Satterwhite** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:52 am

Maybe he has studied the documentary of the recording of Solti's Ring in Vienna, where there were two tubas playing (as well as two first trumpets, and some other doubling).

There definitely are not two tuba parts, or any real reason to have one person play with the trombones, and another play with the horns. The pit will be crowded as it is.

karltuba · Post by **karltuba** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:27 am

The point about Solti's old recordings is a good one. However, it could also be that the "first" tuba is playing the contrabass trombone part on the cimbasso and Neptune would be playing the Tuba as "second" tuba... That is the way I have seen lots of operas in the Bavarian State Opera (Tucci was always playing Cimbasso...).

Have fun what ever you get to play! It is a lot of sitting around, but when you play then you really play!

Karl

ZNC Dandy · Post by **ZNC Dandy** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:39 pm

Dan Satterwhite wrote:Maybe he has studied the documentary of the recording of Solti's Ring in Vienna, where there were two tubas playing (as well as two first trumpets, and some other doubling).

There definitely are not two tuba parts, or any real reason to have one person play with the trombones, and another play with the horns. The pit will be crowded as it is.

I noticed that as well. Bob Tucci is playing his huge Holton, next to the horns and basses, and about 10 feet away next to the tuben is a guy with an immense Kaiser tuba.

Here be the video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=146tTKSXu7s" target="_blank" target="_blank

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:24 pm

ZNC Dandy wrote:I noticed that as well. Bob Tucci is playing his huge Holton, next to the horns and basses, and about 10 feet away next to the tuben is a guy with an immense Kaiser tuba.

Here be the video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=146tTKSXu7s" target="_blank

This - I wonder

Anyway I have found out I am free the date of the performance, so will see

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:58 pm

Bob Tucci looks more like seated with the basses than with the horns. Could that be a revival of the old NYPO practice of letting a contrabass tuba double the string basses on recordings?

As for Wagner tubas: Some makers (Paxman, Alexander, and Hoyer among others) make double tubas in Bb and F. The Alexander is a full double with the rotors placed in a square. Paxman only makes compensating double tubas.

Double tubas however are not universally liked as they always have the smaller bell of the Bb tenor version. That eliminates the larger sound of the single F bass version. I have seen at least one orchestra equipping their section with two double tubas and two single F basses. That makes good sense, as the doubles sound like the Bb tenors, and they are better at negotiating some very difficult low notes written in some Bb tenor parts. And the character of the bass version is maintained by letting the true instrument play that part.

Sadly Wagner tubas are extremely rare on the second hand market.

Klaus

TubeNet

Two tubas for Walkure?

Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?

Re: Two tubas for Walkure?