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Definitely not the Wagner tuba, which was not invented until after Mendelssohn’s death.

Last this topic came up here I downloaded the score and looked through the brass setting. If one goes for clarity in the low dynamics, a bass trombone would do well.

Yet after hearing recordings of Nick Byrne on solo ophicleide and in duet with a euphonium my take on the topic is to use the euphonium as replacement in all situations where a real ophicleide is not available.

I know why there is a general hesitance against my point. The euphonium most often is treated like the equivalent of a tenor trombone, which obviously gives beautiful high range melodies. My own set-up is not without inspiration from practices at our royal opera: put the right mouthpiece in the euph, put a main tuning slide trigger on the euph, and let it be played by the bass trombonist or the tubist. My suggestion for a mouthpiece is the Yeo signature.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

For those interested in downloading the score:

http://imslp.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night ... C_Felix%29

It was written for the ophicleide and is usually played on bass tuba (F, or Eb) today.

I have never heard on euphonium as Klaus suggests. No doubt would work, but as most orchestras have a tuba and no euphonium, the former is generally the preferred. It is not unreasonably high for a bass tuba.

I'm playing A Midsummer Nights Dream Overture this week in the Hartford Symphony and they're using a new edition (2006 Barenreiter) and the part calls for a Corno Inglese di basso and has Ophicleide in parenthesis. It falls beautifully on F-tuba and blends well with the french horns. There aren't any trombones. The overture was written several years before the rest of the piece and shows a different concept of the brass bass voice.

I posted on this a while back. My own "solution" is to use euph with a big mouthpiece for most of the overture, switching back to my Eb for the march. YMMV of course. And yes it's all playable on an Eb or F, but it's a lot easier to be elegant on those descending licks with the euph. Safer too.

A "tweener" for the Dahl sure would be nice. I've been saying for a long time that a REALLY BIG tenor tuba - at least as big as a 621F- would be a neat thing to have, for these challenges, the Barat solos and some other French solo lit, and for some Berlioz as well.

I suspect that the Mirafone 5050 might be as close to a tenor tuba as what is out there on the market today. I have heard good things about it.

bearphonium wrote:I suspect that the Mirafone 5050 might be as close to a tenor tuba as what is out there on the market today. I have heard good things about it.

IMO, the Hirsbrunner euph would be a better choice than the 5050. The 5050 is more flexible, but. being designed as a soloist horn, the sound has a little bit of an edge and brilliance that shades toward brightness and doesn't have as much weight or presence as the HB.

Pgym.

.

The "Midsummer" part was originally written for English Bass Horn (Corno Inglese di basso), which is a v-shaped variant of the serpent invented by Frichot in 1790.
It's very similar in timbre and performance characteristics to the Serpent, but later Mendelssohn okayed the use of an ophicleide for the part. The English Bass Horn oddly became more popular on the continent than in England, and was in fact the root source of our issues in choosing an instrument for Italian opera, as a variant became the first instruments to be called "cimbasso".

There may be a modern solution as to what the >bleep< to do with serpent and bass horn parts in general, but I would certainly use a Euphonium if not allowed to use my ophicleide (which surprisingly conductors seem interested in allowing).

J.c.S.

Serpentine! Serpentine!

The ophicleide can be overused, true. There are contexts, rare, when the trombone scoring with modern bones is untenable.

That said...

I will almost always use a Euph for that stuff, though I have several privileges. First, my Euph is a Yamaha 5 valver with a flat wholestep 5th, so low B is perfectly usable. Second, I am very comfortable with playing Euph strongly in the bottom end, but it does take a lot of practice. That said, the Bobo TT mouthpiece is a god-send for this type of work; it makes the euph a real alternative with the Tuba without messing with the chops, and it makes for some really nifty opportunities, especially with French Music.

Ever notice the exchanged Low Bbs in "Great Gate"? Let alone the very wide range in the whole "Pictures" Every really looked closely at "Daphnis"? All of these work very well for Euph, and Mr. Gourlay (sp?) does recommend Euph for a great deal of Italian opera literature, and rightly so.

Interesting that the brass section would rebel against a well-played ophicleide; you'd think they'd entertain the idea of balancing to it

The ophicleide proponent speaks

J.c.S.

bloke wrote:sidebar:

I'm familiar with a situation where a tuba player played ophicleide quite well but (perhaps) used it on too many pieces...maybe even Meistersinger, etc...

...The brass section of the orchestra went to the Maestro and asked that it be completely banned from use.

-------------------------------------

back to the main topic:

I've been tempted to use a compensating euphonium on the Overture to MSD, but (even with the very best instrument, a Willson 2900) the critical low B natural is quite sharp, and pulling the slide for it is a bit sketchy. Further, if you're playing the entire suite, euphonium will be completely buried by the bass trombone in other pieces - particularly the Wedding March.

That guy apparently didn’t play the ophicleide as well as he played the tuba.

The low B natural is a critical note on the euph. In my opinion it is best helped by the pulling of the widest bore slide, which is why I have a main tuning slide trigger and not one of the systems attached to the valve slides. That note isn’t the easiest on bassbone either, but a bassboner would be trained to handle it.

You are right about the bassbone drowning the euph in the wedding march, if you consider the 3rd trombone a real bassbone part to be played on a modern monster bassbone. That part plays some bass function, but only when playing mostly an octave above the ophicleide part and less often in unison. The upper trombones are in the alto clef, and the 1st originally has been played on an alto. If that happened again today, if the 2nd played a Bach 36 (or equivalent), and if the 3rd played a Bach 42 (or equivalent), then the euph would suffice on the ophicleide part.

Klaus

I must say, it seems I live in a privileged town...

All the bass boners, and most of the tenor players are all very amenable to "sizing down" for certain works, or for using more "age appropriate" equipment. I've played Mozart with Alto, Pea-shooter and Large tenor, Alto, Tenor and G Bass, Small bass on French music or a regular Bach 42 for Stravinsky and Frank. Often times, the section members for a gig, freelance or not, will call and "figure things out". Often the top boner, or the bass (often but not always me) will make the suggested selection of instruments.

That doesn't mean this type of "substitution" is as common as one might think, but the question is asked more often than not. In the POPS, people don't change much, as the programs are so varied it would be stupid to adjust, or at least very difficult. But everywhere else, (save for CO) musicians talk these issued out. Cleveland Low brass folk are pretty conscientious.

More often than not, we come into the gig that way. Conductors never seem to mind or notice. However, I’m the first to admit that I always ask before bringing in the ophicleide or euph. But I always assume cimbasso for the appropriate music.

Again, your mileage may definitely vary!

J.c.S.

jeopardymaster wrote:Serpentine! Serpentine!

I would caution you about repeating that word over and over. Someone just give you a good belt.

TubaRay wrote:

jeopardymaster wrote:Serpentine! Serpentine!

I would caution you about repeating that word over and over. Someone just give you a good belt.

... and "vee" don't vant that!

Actually, it was a reference to the movie "The In-Laws." The Falk-Arkin version from the '70s, not the lame one.