King 625 baritone?

[imperialbari]

Nothing in the number of valves or in the bell direction excludes a beautiful sound. Ideally student models should respond very easily. Some doing so are less stable at very loud dynamics, but there is no real reason for students playing very loud.

Often student instruments are assembled by less experienced craftsmen than are the pro models. A lucky sample of a student model may be a very fine instrument. The worst problem about them being their rareness.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

This horn, and its analogs from Conn, Martin, Reynolds and Olds, are the staple of the baritone sections in most of the school bands across the USA. Jupiter now makes one similar. For American style mixed winds concert band (whatever you call it: concert band, symphonic band, etc.), its hybrid tonality, to my ears, has a quality about it that blends with both woodwinds and brass, while is still able to cut through for solo or section passages (like march counter melodies) when necessary, better than a British-style euph in the concert band context.

I played one of these the one summer at band camp, summer 1979; a gazillion trumpet players (yes, I still played trumpet then) showed up, but no baritones, so I tried it to see if I liked it. I appreciated what the horn could do, and one of the pieces even had a short baritone solo, but I found out the instrument was not for me. And when I came back to brass a few years ago, I also tried trombones, baritones, etc., but I found that personally I prefer tuba instead.

To play the 3-valve models, it's no different than playing a 3-valve tuba, souzy or any other brass instrument: pull 1 and 2 slightly and set them so 1+2 combinations are not quite so sharp, but the 1st valve or 2nd valve alone is not flat; pull 3 so that 2+3 is in tune or even just a hair flat so 1+3 will not be so sharp but still lippable, and 1+2+3 just has to be managed. With these horns, the 5th partials are not so flat as they can be with the bigger euph cousins, so they are usually easy to lip and play in tune. Also, a slightly smaller mouthpiece, like a Schilke 50, instead of the bottomless cavern of a Schilke 51D helps the tone and intonation better. A lot of times, these come with a 12C trombone mouthpiece, but that is too shallow to get a good round tone once you're back underway with playing. I believe this instrument does have the trombone mouthpiece sized receiver, your music store can confirm that for you.

The only caveat is that like any 3-valve horn, you do have to lip pitches moreso than on a 4-valve horn, so that bottom of staff F and second space C (if you read bass clef) or low G & middle D (if you read treble clef) can be interesting. But use your ears and your embouchure and you should be just fine.

As far as durability and such, King is a good, standard, durable brand. The horn will outlast you if you take care of it with the usual keeping the bore clean, regular lubrication, and wipe it down gently with a clean soft cloth, like a cloth diaper, after a session as you put it away.

Congrats on finding a great example of an underappreciated horn.

[ken k]

Can't speak for the new models but we have 20 -30 year old exampbles of these horns in our HS band, (which we now use for marching band duty) that are still very serviceable. King generally makes a very sound instrument and I see no reason why it would not last a long time. Parts availability and repairability would also be very high. You can find these by the dozen on ebay!!!

I too am a fan of the sound of the "American-style" baritone horn. I think the sound is a bit more direct and not as woofy as the euphopnium. Obviuosly the euhphonium in the hands of a capable player is a beautiful sounding instrument, but I feel that most average HS players can get a better sound more easily on the smaller bore hybrid instrument.

I have used these horns on more than one concert band gig in years past.

ken k

[ken k]

If you would consider purchasing an older used model I would recommend avoiding the older "H.N. White" models with the tuning slide in the leadpipe before the valve set. The intonation on these older models is not as good as the newer models. They also make a four valved version, model number 2266, which always interested me, but I have never played one.

ken k

[oldbandnerd]

Mattheus ,
Please check your inbox. I have a used King 627 for sell that's in good condition.

[WC8KCY]

If the King performs up to your standards, buy it and consider yourself fortunate. These instruments can be quite variable in the way they perform--I find the most common faults to be a tone color lacking in overtones, general stuffiness, and notes that just don't speak as they should. There are many good used baritones available that are also very affordable; there is no need to settle for one that doesn't play well. Happy hunting!

Cheers,
Greg

[EdFirth]

First off, they're small euphoniums. A baritone is a cylindrical bore instrument made only by the Brits. It's as though players who use Besson-like instruments want to be in a special catagory somehow elevated because they moved UP to these instruments from their school's Conn, King, Olds, or whatever. Which were probably in poor repair and almost certainly out of line. Sorry folks, they're all euphoniums. Just different sizes and if your teacher told you differently you were misinformed. The smaller euphoniums are clearer sounding some would call it brighter which works great outside. They, when maintained, are also easy to play. I love the sound of the bigger horns but there is room for both in the nomenclature, In the tuba world a Conn 2/3J and a Conn 34J are both tubas and in the same section compliment each other.Have a euphonic day. Ed

[iiipopes]

Well, Ed, with the conical profile, of course they are. But since with most people the word "euphonium" only conjures up images of a Besson-style British 4-valve large bore Blaikley automatic compensating system euphonium, what else are we going to call them? "American style hybrid small bore euphonium/baritone horns with a more conical profile"? I think not.

In the American concert band context, when a person says "baritone," everyone knows this is what they mean, and not the British brass band saxhorn derived more cylindrical profile instrument.

From the beginning of concert band in America, these instruments have been referred to as "baritones." So that's what I'm going to call them.

[EdFirth]

Well put. To be honest I played "euphonium" in circus bands and always have and will call it a baritone.The parts say baritone and all the various leaders referred to it as a baritone. So I will continue to refer to them all, except for British baritone which I would call just that, as baritones. I was just trying to point out that most people actually don't know the difference. And lets face it, today, professionally speaking, either is a double for a trombone player since outside of milatary bands there are next to no Paying baritone/euphoniun jobs.You can call it whatever you like, the trick is getting someone to call you to play it. For money. For me, it's still not and will never be a hobby. Ed

[iiipopes]

Ed, indeed. Thanks for your reply. I agree absolutely. A rose by any other name...etc. And of course, this in spite of David Werden also insisting on calling it a euphonium as well, because of the conical taper of the bugle.

The bottom line is that the American concert band version should rightly be called a third type of this family of instruments, because with the smaller bore it does have a different tone than either the British style baritone or euphonium, but with its more conical taper it is still completely different from either a trombone or a British baritone. But nobody has come up with another name yet, so most American band directors and players will still call them baritones as well.

So the spectrum of tonality for the Bb brass instruments seems to be (from the more cylindrical to the more conical): trombone, British baritone, American baritone/euph, British euphonium, French C tuba. But again, because of the difference in bores and valves verses slides, this is not a completely linear scale, due to the different effects that bore, bell flare, valves, mouthpiece and other criteria have on tone.

I've been looking, but finding nothing but frustration, about the origins of the American version. The origins of the British euph & bari are well documented, with Sax and others, etc., and Blaikley's comp patent, etc., but I can't find much about the origins of our American hybrid version.

If anybody has any links to the origin of the American version, please post.

[Tuba Guy]

new name-baritonium?

[Craig F]

In American nomenclature, the Brit baritone was known as a Tenor Horn. The Brit Eb Tenor Horn is called an Alto Horn in America. On the Horn-u-copia site, there are some scans of old catalogs you can download. The Marceau instruments in the Sears catalog listed a Tenor, Bari, Bass all in Bb.

[iiipopes]

ZOMBIE ALERT!!!
I am reviving a zombie thread. I will know more by the end of February, but one of the community bands I play in is having a strange turn of events. Two years ago they went through a time that their only bass voice was a gentleman playing (very well, indeed, I might add) a mid-1920's Conn BBb BASS saxophone that sounds incredible. Then I re-joined after some years away, then two other tuba players joined. Two more may be joining, resulting in a plethora of bass voices.

As a digression, back then there were three or four good euphonium/baritone players that covered the section. At the present time, there are no regular, and only an occasional sit-in on euph/bari. So...

Just like one of my earlier posts in this thread, I find myself again in a position to cover the part. But with no horn. I was supplied a college-owned King baritone way back then. But I need to purchase now. The King American Baritone is still my favorite instrument for American concert band, just like the American "long" cornet is my favorite upper brass instrument, instead of a trumpet. With limited cash, and no desire to develop a "world class tone," (inside joke that the TNFJ will get), I started surfing.

I FOUND ONE!!! - a King from the last couple of years of Cleveland manufacture, right before Mrs. White relinquished the helm, in great shape:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252256824665?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT" target="_blank

Now, the listing says 1967, but from the serial number and "Made in Cleveland," we all know it is circa 1962-3-4.

I have a Schilke 50 from years ago when I played 2nd bone on a King 3B for a few gigs, and a Bach 6 1/2 AL on the way, so here goes for a new project!

KingBaritone.jpg

[ken k]

these horns play great. and personally I prefer them to a full blown euph. the sound is a bit more focused and centered, especially for your average high school player.

The new ones still play great too.

k

[Uncle Markie]

The late Robert King - who arranged and published a ton of brass music, and was himself a baritone horn player - was once asked o define "euphonium", since Conn called their baritone horns "euphoniums" for years; double-bell instruments, etc. His answer was "a euphonium is a baritone horn played well".

It has been my privilege to work with some wonderful performers on both. Years ago I had Wayne Lewis play with my concert band. He had "retired" from the Goldman Band that year. Wayne played with Sousa, Pryor, Goldman, and Merle Evans - to drop some names. He played a Holton "Czech-bore" 4-valve baritone horn and sounded wonderful. He was a student of Joe DeLuca's - these guys all played their asses off.

I think the baritone parts are the most fun to play in a concert band - no sitting around - you're in all the way either with the low brass, the reeds or playing the countermelody. It's almost impossible to overwrite for that axe - although John Palatucci can attest that sometimes I get close!

If I were to start playing the baritone/euphonium it would probably be a Connstellation or a KIng. I like the response better and the shorter valve travel. To each his/her own; it's the musician behind the horn in the final analysis.

Good luck with your King 625 baritone - practice daily and always strive for tone!

Mark Heter

Mark Heter