Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

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petter@brasseriet.no
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Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by petter@brasseriet.no »

Dear Tuba players,
in several settings I have played the tuba where a string bass / electric bass is more common.
If you follow the link below, you can hear me with my band. I use a normal microphone and no effects.
from the link below, choose "diverse" and then "bandet". Three tunes will follow.
http://www.tenorsax.no" target="_blank" target="_blank

We have got several gigs with this band!

All the best

Petter
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by imperialbari »

Tuba was considered the dance bass in the post-WWI era.

Paxman is a famed London hornmaker, but the company started out after WWI converting the surplus army helicons into sousaphones for the dance market.

My 40K is gold plated and insanely heavy. It never was intended for the marching field. Some dance bassist could afford it because it was the hot thing just prior to 1930.

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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by pierso20 »

It all sounds excellent. I was jamming. :tuba:
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by timdicarlo »

Good stuff! I don't really have anything particularly earthshattering or insightful to add to the conversation, so let it suffice that I thoroughly enjoyed the recordings and hope to hear more from you in the future. Well done!
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by Wyvern »

Very nice Petter! Which tuba did you use for swing band?
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by Mister JP »

In high school, I often wondered why there was no option for the tuba in our jazz/big band. We had a very competent electric bass player, but I was always left out because I didn't play a "jazz" instrument. Finally, my senior year I bit the bullet and learned bass trombone in order to play with the group.

It's nice to hear that I was right in thinking a tuba would have done as well or better in the role of bass for a big band.
Roll that beautiful bean footage...
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by petter@brasseriet.no »

Hi Neptune!
I am using my B&S PT-20. I have used my old PT-3 (now sold) a lot as well, but I find the intonation on the PT-20 better. It is actually also more easy blowing despite the larger design. I have never tried an instrument where price/quality/value is better than on the B&S CC-Tubas. PM me your address and I will (snail) mail you our DEMO recording (just 3 tracks).

Thanks for listening!


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Instruments:
C-B&S PT-20, built 2006
Bb-Schediwy Kaiser, built approx. 1930
Bb-Czech Helicon
F-Tuba Ahlberg & Ohlsson
Helicon-Bernhard Ueberwasser, built approx 1910
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by Arkietuba »

Well, if you wanna stay "true" to the genre...swing bands GENERALLY used a string bass. Now, "trad" jazz (i.e. New Orleans/Chicago jazz) bands used tuba/sousaphone along with string bass. They branched off from marching bands and so the bass voice of a marching band is the tuba so they used a tuba.

I think you should do whatever you feel is best...I picked up bass so I could play both. I think it's a good thing to know. I also play trombone and in high school I played lead bone in the jazz band. I personally would want to be traditional but I'm not apposed to having a tuba player in a swing band.
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by Steve Marcus »

bloke wrote: The tuba, really, is the most adaptable for most all jazz applications - from small combo to big band...but PLAYING the tuba with a "true" jazz band (not to be confused with a "hotel" or "mickey" band) on a 4-hour gig with three or four 15-20 minute breaks DOES (indeed) require a TREMENDOUS amount of energy (and a good player as well).
It helps that

1. Petter is a fine player with a good horn
2. He IS miked
3. He keeps his range on any given song within an octave and a fourth, mostly within one octave.

Thus, the player is able to use/conserve air wisely while producing a musically correct and appropriate/interesting bass line with a clean tone that does emulate a string bass (or, as bloke pointed out, perhaps better than a string bass!).

As we are all, to a greater or lesser extent, eternal students of this musical genre (i.e., we listen to each other and learn), this comment is offered in the good spirit of conversation with the invitation of confirmation or correction by others.
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by Wyvern »

Excuse my ignorance, as I have not done this kind of playing, but does one play from music, use some set routine, or entirely improvise?
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by David Richoux »

Neptune wrote:Excuse my ignorance, as I have not done this kind of playing, but does one play from music, use some set routine, or entirely improvise?
It does vary from band to band, but in my experience (playing this kind of stuff since c. 1978) has been mostly working from a very basic chord sheet - sometimes the melody line is shown, sometimes just the chord changes, sometimes the lyrics are added. This format is sometimes called a "Lead Sheet" and can be found collected in Trad or Standards Jazz "fake books." The way the chords are displayed can vary from grids, staff & measures, or just a few lines of text like: "Bb///C//D7//Eb///F///F/// etc. or even simpler.

Learning the songs depends on the musicians being familiar with the tunes, either from hearing other bands, recordings, or being able to figure out desirable harmony, counter-point, riffs and solos from the simple melody line.

Some bands use fully worked out charts - the songs and arrangements of Lu Watters, Turk Murphy and many others have been collected and copied since the 1950s and have been passed from group to group. Some bands stick very close to those charts, others just use them as a starting point. Some groups have found collections of old dance band charts from the 1920s and 1930s - there are thousands of full arrangements of old songs around! Most of these old charts have specific notes written for the bass line, BTW.

The group I have been with since 1983 uses a simple song plan sheet- what sequence of Intro, Verse, Chorus, Solos, Vocals, special features, breaks, key change, etc, each song might have. We usually follow them, but can modify on the fly (sometimes accidentally.) The actual notes played are from memory - our song sheets do not usually include the chord progressions. We rehearse about once a month, mostly to work out new songs or revise songs we have been playing for years.

If a band is more of a "Pick-up" group, hired to play for some one-time event, the songs chosen usually have a traditional structure that is followed, and the solos tend to just follow "down the line" (Trumpet, reeds, t-bone, banjo, bass, piano is a typical sequence) and then a recap of the "Head" or Chorus. This structure seems to have been continued by more modern jazz combos, to some degree. I have often worked with a group of experienced players who might have never played together before - by following the basic structure we can play quite complicated songs without any written music and sound like we have been playing together for years!
Last edited by David Richoux on Fri May 29, 2009 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by David Richoux »

There are some, not a lot, of tubists pushing into the alt.music scene in the last 5 to 10 years. I have been trying to keep track of them, mostly because of my radio show interests, but also because it seems like a good idea! I have played tuba with a country & western band (that went nowhere after 6 months - too early?) and experimented with some other concept groups over the years. With Tuba Gooding Jr. on the TV almost every night now it might be a bit easier to push the idea forward. Groups like SNMNMNM and D&T are getting pretty well known and I come across many other less well known groups with tuba all the time...

Go for it!
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by petter@brasseriet.no »

Thanks for many nice and good comments!
When playing bass lines like this, I feel more comfortable reading chord charts than written bass lines. If every note was written down you use to much effort reading them rather than focusing on drive and rhythm. Of course, the way you control the air is important. You won´t keep up with the band if you use all your air on four bars.
And of course - the mike is helping a lot! On gigs, the trumpet player is always worn out before me ( this you can hear on the tracks...)

Petter
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Oslo, Norway
Instruments:
C-B&S PT-20, built 2006
Bb-Schediwy Kaiser, built approx. 1930
Bb-Czech Helicon
F-Tuba Ahlberg & Ohlsson
Helicon-Bernhard Ueberwasser, built approx 1910
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by tubashaman2 »

.
Last edited by tubashaman2 on Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by rocksanddirt »

I agree quite a bit with Bloke. This past weekend at the sac jazz jubilee there was a "jam" band for anyone who wanted to come play some trad. I sat with my tuba for a 4-5 tunes, to give the hired sousaphone player a break in a 4 hour jam....and 'cause i showed up....those 4 -5 tunes were a solid 45 mins of straight playing with a pick up group of trad fans from around the world and from 14-15 yr old high schoolers to a couple guys push'n 80.

I'm awful at good baselines, but stick'n to the root on one, and trying not to get to fancy....it was acceptable.
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by David Richoux »

bloke wrote:
tubashaman2 wrote:In a jazz combo like setting, I can not see a tuba doing 3-4 sets due to endurance issues replacing the bass. I would consider it as part of the bone section
It's possible.

Turn it around and look at it completely backwards from the way you're looking at it right now:

Why "study" "the tuba" for 4, 6, or 8 years (and pay a bunch of dough to do it while earning very little dough) ONLY for a SLIGHT CHANCE at sitting in the back of an orchestra once or twice a month and playing no more than 15-20 minutes out of a 1-3/4 hr. concert?
I play 3 - 4 hour gigs (45 to 50 minutes on, 15 minute break) several times a month - 3 sets is a normal gig. I am playing 2, 4 or more notes in most every measure of every song, and we don't take very long between each song.
It is all a matter of getting used to playing, using a mic if needed, and developing the chops to do it. It is not like being in a large tuba section in a marching or concert band (I do that too) - every bass note the audience (and the rest of the band) hears is YOU! (The bass is both helping to keep the rhythm & tempo going correctly AND providing the root platform for the melody and harmony to work off - a lot of responsibility!)

(I have also watched Banda musicians play 4 to 5 hour gigs without any significant breaks, and the Sousaphone players are key players (and LOUD!)) Balkan brass bands also are a nice workout for the tuba player...
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by Wyvern »

Another question - Why Mic on a tuba? A tuba can normally produce quite a bit of sound with a good player behind it and if more volume is required, such as for large venue, why not just use a 6/4, instead of 4/4 tuba to produce it with less effort instead of resorting to a mic?
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by imperialbari »

Neptune wrote:Another question - Why Mic on a tuba? A tuba can normally produce quite a bit of sound with a good player behind it and if more volume is required, such as for large venue, why not just use a 6/4, instead of 4/4 tuba to produce it with less effort instead of resorting to a mic?
You can play much more lightly when amplified. Benefits in music as well as in stamina.

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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by ArnoldGottlieb »

Arkietuba wrote:Well, if you wanna stay "true" to the genre...swing bands GENERALLY used a string bass. Now, "trad" jazz (i.e. New Orleans/Chicago jazz) bands used tuba/sousaphone along with string bass. They branched off from marching bands and so the bass voice of a marching band is the tuba so they used a tuba.
Would somebody post some compelling evidence that the tuba was the bass voice in traditional i.e. 20's jazz. This story seems to get repeated so much that it's become true, but I have yet to find overwhelming evidence to prove it. This book http://www.amazon.com/Pops-Foster-Autob ... 0520023552" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank does a lot to disprove it. I'm aware of the 50's dixieland records, (firehouse 5, 5+2, Dukes of, etc.) that (are great and) have set the standard instrumentation for modern traditional band, but when I listen to the original music, and or read original accounts, I am not convinced.
Anybody?
Thanks.
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Re: Tuba as a full worthy bass in swing band

Post by tubatooter1940 »

A tuba player can play any type of music all night long but must physically work much harder than a string bass player.
Klaus nailed it with his post. Miking a tuba allows softer more subtle playing with more ease without having to struggle to balance volume with drummers, trumpets, saxes with metal mouthpieces, and electric pianos and guitars.
There are many jam places around here where I can take a tuba and show players from country, blues, jazz and trop rock bands exactly what I can do for them. I prefer to play acoustically as does bloke but most places require amps. I show up with tuba, playing stand ('cause I'm so darn old) and a 300 watt JBL Eon with a 15 inch speaker and a SM57 mike on a boom stand to get up with the electric guys.
Finding breathing places in a walking bass line or fast shuffle is a problem but we can play long tones and solo like any other horn.
Around here the novelty value of a tuba bass is a "hook" for booking purposes. People walk up to a bandstand with the usual drums, guitars and keyboards and if they see a tuba, the first thing they ask is to hear somebody blow that darn thing. A band will hire the best they can find to play bass. Hiring a tuba player is usually no problem if he or she is effective.
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