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I am sorry if I have offended any Texas band directors (or anyone else). I obviously did not think out my post thoroughly. Most directors work tirelessly to make sure that their students learn, which is certainly a good enough reason to have great respect for them. I know I have a lot of respect for my current director.

The "it doesn't matter so much if you play with a bad sound as long as you are in tune" was exaggerated. A director has never actually told me this, although they have greatly emphasized playing in tune (which is definitely important, and I should thank my directors for doing so since I first started playing tuba).

I would also like to apologize for any trouble I may have caused David Kirk. I should not have spoken for another person, which was a foolish thing to do.

David Kirk is as good as a musician, teacher, and player can be, and he is certainly someone to take a lesson with if you are given the chance.

tubamonster

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tubamonster wrote:Texas is obviously extremely competitive in music and marching. Some would say that Texas band directors carry over playing style from marching to the stage (i.e. tonguing the beginning of a note hard). I have taken lessons with David Kirk (Houston Symphony), and he does not seem to have a high opinion of Texas band directors. Some of my directors in the past have had ideas like "I doesn't matter so much if you play with a bad sound as long as you ar in tune", "breathing every other measure means that you are breathing inefficiently (even for seventh grade tuba players who make a half decent sound)", or emphasizing a song over learning the horn.

What are your thoughts?

tubamonster

I think I'd like to know how old you are. Speaking for another person, especially one of his status, is just foolish.

I believe, pound for pound, Texas produces the best technical high school students. I am NOT saying musicians.

Texas is just another animal. Are a much different expectation there vs. other places in the country. Every place has their thing that drives how marching AND concert happens and how the style coordinate.

It is what is is.

I think I'm qualified to chime in on this one. Although I was a band director in Texas for 8 years before going into the music ministry, I don't believe my point of view is biased. I spent my middle school band years in Michigan, my high school years in Oklahoma, and college at the university of Arkansas. I heard both many outstanding and pitiful bands in all four states. Texas is a huge state, so of course there are going to be many good programs and many poor programs. I believe Texas has the highest percentage of great programs in the nation. I also believe that they have the highest percentage of crappy programs in the nation, if such can be quantified. I can assure you that there are many incredible marching bands, but their are an equal number of great concert bands. Some of the best are tops in both categories: Queen City HS and New Boston HS come to mind. Queen City was the top AA Marching Band in the state and the AA honor band in concert in back to back years. Just come to a TMEA conference in San Antonio in February and listen to the state honor bands if you want to hear for yourself. Listen to programs like Duncanville High School, The Colony HS, Space Center Intermediate and you'll hear for yourself that there is no lack of quality on the stage. I was proud to be in the Oklahoma All-State band, but I can say that the 2002 TMEA Region IV honor band was much better than that the 1989 All-State Band in Oklahoma. They played more difficult material and played it at a higher level of proficiency. I think that anybody who paints programs in Texas with such a broad brush is highly misinformed. I'm not speaking of David Kirk by the way.

Eric B wrote: Texas is a huge state, so of course there are going to be many good programs and many poor programs. I believe Texas has the highest percentage of great programs in the nation. I also believe that they have the highest percentage of crappy programs in the nation, if such can be quantified. I can assure you that there are many incredible marching bands, but their are an equal number of great concert bands. Some of the best are tops in both categories: Queen City HS and New Boston HS come to mind. Queen City was the top AA Marching Band in the state and the AA honor band in concert in back to back years. Just come to a TMEA conference in San Antonio in February and listen to the state honor bands if you want to hear for yourself. Listen to programs like Duncanville High School, The Colony HS, Space Center Intermediate and you'll hear for yourself that there is no lack of quality on the stage. I was proud to be in the Oklahoma All-State band, but I can say that the 2002 TMEA Region IV honor band was much better than that the 1989 All-State Band in Oklahoma. They played more difficult material and played it at a higher level of proficiency. I think that anybody who paints programs in Texas with such a broad brush is highly misinformed. I'm not speaking of David Kirk by the way.

Since several of my college "frat bros" are band directors and I am a product of a Texas band program, I am "duty bound" to respond. Like Eric stated previously, Texas has more first class band programs than any other state. Texas bands do VERY well in competitions (both marching and concert band) not just in the state but around the country as well. Are there concert bands who tend to sound like they are on the field rather than on stage? Yes of course--but that happens all over. The better bands know the difference and play accordingly.

I do not think its a good idea to "speak for" your teacher. I would be truly surprised if Mr. Kirk felt that way about band directors here (that is the kind of attitude fiddle players usually put out, and we all know how pompous and arrogant they can be!)

JJ

Texas is lucky to have the support for the arts that it does. It is not like that elsewhere in the arts. band programs are castles in TX, and thats a great thing. EVERYONE has to be careful about marching band replacing music education... Everywhere.

TonyTuba wrote:Texas is lucky to have the support for the arts that it does. It is not like that elsewhere in the arts. band programs are castles in TX, and thats a great thing. EVERYONE has to be careful about marching band replacing music education... Everywhere.

This is definitely true.

However, a lot of the support is interpretated by community and organizations as control...which isn't always good.

One pro can lead to a con and vice-versa. And so the story goes...

TonyTuba wrote:Texas is lucky to have the support for the arts that it does. It is not like that elsewhere in the arts. band programs are castles in TX, and thats a great thing. EVERYONE has to be careful about marching band replacing music education... Everywhere.

The support comes from the athletics. As many know, football is king in Texas. Without that, most programs would would never be what they are today. Programs like Duncanville are truly special since they usually have great marching bands and are always in the running for the TMEA Honor Band.

Texas is so big and there's so many different programs with directors from different backgrounds that it's hard to narrow down qualities that are found in Texas bands. I went to Spring H.S. (north Houston) and, even though marching band was a BIG DEAL, our directors were focused on a "concert band" sound. (carried ideas from the stage to the field) Honestly, Spring was more concert band oriented.

As far as the "bad sound ok unless it's in tune" is unsettling. I have NEVER heard ANY band director say this. EVER. and it's DEFINITELY not a 'state-wide' concept. Texas is like any other state except that there's more competition. the players here IMHO are no better than anywhere else. just my .02

-CT

There are some VERY good marching band programs here in southwestern Indiana, too. The trouble is, though... they are not producing musicians. Fact is, the high school marching band programs are treated more like sports programs than music programs. It seems to me that if a kid doesn't start playing well before he/she reaches high school, they're going to learn little about theory. At the high school level it seems there is more emphasis on the production and winning. No so much music. If a kid doesn't want to be in marching band, the doors are closed on jazz band, orchestra, and other ensembles. Sad.

There are some VERY good marching band programs here in southwestern Indiana, too. The trouble is, though... they are not producing musicians. Fact is, the high school marching band programs are treated more like sports programs than music programs. It seems to me that if a kid doesn't start playing well before he/she reaches high school, they're going to learn little about theory. At the high school level it seems there is more emphasis on the production and winning. No so much music. If a kid doesn't want to be in marching band, the doors are closed on jazz band, orchestra, and other ensembles. Sad.

This is more along the lines of what I should have said.

Texas is extremely competitive and there are some great musicians (not everyone obviously), and sometimes the emphasis is put too much winning. It sucks the fun out of playing in band if you ask me. Playing should be about making music and not winning or showing off, and just that.

tubamonster

I will not enter the Texas specific discussion, but rather look at the tonguing harder matter.

That was a term used during my boyhood learning years also, but it was (for me) killed once and for always by Denis Wick at a clinic in 1973.

The tongue is a release valve and nothing else. It has some effect on the abruptness of the air release, but the main factor is the pressure and to some degree the direction of the air locked behind the tongue.

Tonguing hard rather should be named ‘playing with forzando on all notes’. In outdoor playing this playing style may be perceived efficient because the rhythmic structure of the music is emphasized.

One frequent poster here once criticized a late but famous tubist for playing with this forzando style also in his orchestral work. My education in some ways was old-fashioned, but we were encouraged to do the same in band playing. The purpose was about marking that our notes were played and then get out of the way for whatever else happened in the music. This approach is related to some very basis phenomenon of hearing psychology.

If we hear a note in a recording where the attack has been cut off, then it may be very hard to determine which instrument is playing. I followed a course of sound architecture during my college years. A very long note with no attack was played for us. We agreed on it being a cello, when the player suddenly, in the same breath, continued in a descending phrase. It was a trombone. I had an LP with Barenboim playing a Mozart concerto, and at one point in the 3rd movement I went rotten every time listening: the piano played a long note with vibrato, which I knew was impossible. I eventually checked with the score: a bassoon entered a long soft note, which happened also to be the last note in a piano phrase. The piano covered the bassoon attack and my ears were fooled.

I once played lead trombone in a bigband with a leader I wasn’t comfortable with. In a certain context I skipped a couple of very high notes. The complaint thereafter wasn’t about these notes being skipped. No I was told they were late. If there is no hard attack to a note somebody will interpret whatever into your playing.

Klaus

tubamonster wrote: ...sometimes the emphasis is put too much winning.tubamonster

I couldn't agree more. I think directors should not emphasize "winning", but instead major on making truly great music. Music is not winning and losing, it is art. They should expect great attention to detail and the finer points of musicianship. I think when leaders have high expectations in "music making", their achievements will be recognized.

Welcome to TubeNet.

When you want to keep your job you do what you have to do.

I am not sure if there are many band directors out there that teach their kids that winning is so important. Most bands are teaching the 'its how you play the game' philosophy (though when the kids arent around, I bet winning is more important to them). Maybe when they figure out that kids really want to just sit down and play...