Berlioz Low Brass Section

[Posaune2]

Berlioz Requiem in Philadelphia.

Carol Jantsch, Steve Rosse, Dave Zerkel
Dave Murray, Chris Dudley,Blair Bollinger, Eric Carlson,Matt Vaughn,Nitzan Haroz, Weston Sprott, Ilan Morgenstern

Due to budget cuts, and an outbreak of common sense, the piece was performed with half the usual number of low brass players.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Good to see Weston Sprott from the Met there...I had the pleasure of accompanying him for a recital/masterclass here at Oklahoma State not long ago. A really nice guy and wonderful player!

Looks like this was a fun blow for all involved...what a section! Can you imagine the sound at the beginning of the Tuba Mirum?

Cutbacks? Meh...I'll bet they still used 10 timpani players.

[windshieldbug]

They only used this many because that was ALL they needed!

[Posaune2]

Cutbacks? Meh...I'll bet they still used 10 timpani players.

Just six tympanists, fifteen drums total. Practically chamber music.

[Pearl01]

I attended this concert on Thursday evening and happened to be sitting in the right side of Verizon Hall- directly underneath Steve Rosse. As I told my friend that night, he was RIPPING! Steve is an amazing tuba player, it was awesome to hear him live. Even with the cutbacks, this concert was probably one of the best (if not THE BEST) that I have attended this year. Congratulations to all who were involved.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

When I played this piece a couple of years ago, there were two tubas on stage and one up in a balcony...How many "possible" (according to the score) tuba players could theoretically be involved in a performance of this work?

Well, Wikipedia shows that the score calls for 4 tubas in the orchestra on stage, 2 tubas in "Brass Choir 1" and 4 ophicleides in "Brass Choir 4"...those parts are, naturally, usually covered by tubas.

So - 10 tubas for a full-forces performance of the Requiem.

EDIT: After looking carefully at the available scores at IMLSP, it doesn't appear that there are any parts for 4 tubas in the "on stage" orchestra (another example of why one shouldn't immediately trust info on Wikipedia). Granted, there are three movements left out at IMSLP (Rex tremendae, Domine Jesu Christe, and Sanctus), but I'm relatively sure those three are written for small-scale forces. The score shows parts for Tuba I-II in Choir 1 and Tuba III-VI in Choir 4. Tuba I-II are always in unison (can be covered by one player). Tuba III-VI, always shown on one line, represent two parts - mostly octaves, but some back-and-forth rhythmic stuff as well...these 4 parts can be covered by two players. Therefore, the entire piece can be covered by 3 players.

Sorry for the misinformation.

[Posaune2]

I should clarify - no parts were left out in our performance, but Berlioz calls for all of the low brass parts to be doubled, and the cornet parts are supposed to be quadroupled. We had one player per part.

The offstage parts and the onstage parts can be covered by the same players, and in our case, Dutoit decided that he preferred that nobody move around, so we just played them from where we were. That led to a fairly interesting sound in the final movements where the trombones were floating soft pedal tones from the rear balcony of the hall in support of flute chords onstage.

The chorus was not as large as Berlioz wanted - we got by with 200 or so.

Still, a fairly impressive racket.

[bort]

Cool picture!

I like the "bunny ears" on the trombone player in the middle. (I've never understood why that's funny, but I still laugh when I see it. )

[Toad Away]

Great pic

Hey Z-man --
Glad to see you still know "most of the fingerings".
-- T-man

[imperialbari]

Wasn’t it so that scores like this one by Berlioz and the 1812, just to name two involving large numbers of brass, were originally performed by ordinary, if maybe large, orchestras augmented by military bands?

I have only seen two performances of that sort. In one case the backdrop of the stage in the Tivoli Gardens was raised and the boys’ guard band joined in on 1812. The other case was in the theater of Odense, where the then local military band joined the orchestra in a few pieces, among these the triumphal march from Aida.

Economy has been mentioned as a reason for eliminating “redundant” players. But was Berlioz’s concept of four orchestras redundant for the total experience of the original performance?

The military bands have developed in quality, as have the orchestras, during the years I have observed the scene. I doubt the scores mentioned would put challenges on the members of the top military bands in a number of countries (no reasons to be specific), which would not be honored very musically.

At least some of the DC bands are huge, because they shall be able to fulfil ceremonial and concert duties simultaneously. Wouldn’t it be possible to plan such bands joining some of the large metropolitan orchestras? Maybe combined with a band tour to the relevant part of your country?

The bands are on sort of a fixed salary. If not done too often such allocation of the band duties would be justifiable. If recordings and TV transmissions were done, I see this as a win/win situation. Also for myself, as recordings and transmissions eventually would come to my home theater.

Klaus

[Toad Away]

Wasn’t it so that scores like this one by Berlioz and the 1812, just to name two involving large numbers of brass, were originally performed by ordinary, if maybe large, orchestras augmented by military bands?
Klaus

Klaus, you are so correct.
Several times during my career with the Army Field Band our brass
section would join the Boston Pops, the Baltimore Sym., and others
for 1812.

Those were the days my friend!

[Posaune2]

I think when you look at the numbers of players that Berlioz specified, you have to start with the number of singers he wanted, and take it from there. In the case of the Requiem, I believe he wanted a choir of 500 or more.

In our hall, there just isn't room for a choir that size without major reconstruction. And with a choir the size we could fit in the normal loft, (about 200) even with reduced brass we had to scale back on the dynamics in quite a number of spots. It would have been fun to try the piece with the full complement of brass, but unless we had tripled the size of the chorus, we probably would have sent half the players home after the first rehearsal.

[imperialbari]

I agree on the proportions to the choir.

Yet this piece has been laid out with very unusual proportions to create an unusual experience. I don’t know its performance history, but when I saw the score with the orchestras named by the compass directions, I imagined a huge cathedral for the original performance.

Not all of the cathedrals I have seen would hold the full force for this piece. The only ones immediately coming to my mind would be the Karlstad-S, the Roskilde-DK, and the Catholic cathedral in Liverpool-UK, but then I am no expert on cathedrals.

Klaus

[J.c. Sherman]

Notre Dame a Paris leaps to mind as well.

J.c.S. (sad to see no ophicleides...)

[Wyvern]

I think it could be performed in Salisbury, as we recently performed new work with around 600 performers.

Ha! That gives me idea of suggesting Berlioz Requiem for my orchestra's 100th anniversary concert in a few years

[imperialbari]

I think it could be performed in Salisbury, as we recently performed new work with around 600 performers.

Ha! That gives me idea of suggesting Berlioz Requiem for my orchestra's 100th anniversary concert in a few years

Snapshot 2009-06-23 19-18-00.jpg

You may have to change the compass directions, but 4 orchestras should be possible.

Klaus