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I played a quintet gig with my 184 recently because bloke hadn't finished my O-99 and the church's VMI wasn't available. We had some intonation problems that we had not been having and in my after thoughts I believe it was the bass line that was the root cause. My 184 has the same sharp 12 combination problems as every German rotary horn I've played so I pull 1 a lot to fix it. In the problem areas, the bass line was going by way too fast to pull. The scalewise fast passages didn't cause any undue concern for the others but the arpeggiated stuff was full of sharp 12's. This gave the upper voices who happened to be harmonizing on those notes fits. Just an observation but I don't think I would be able to lip it either. It just goes by too fast. Fast enough that to the ear it kind of sounds like an out of tune bass chord instead of individual notes. Has anyone else had experience along this line or am I just being too picky?

Use 3rd.

K

By definition, all 1+2 combinations on all brass instruments should be at least slightly sharp due to the proportional nature of pitch being forced onto the linear nature of the valve slides. For example, all pro grade trumpets, and even some intermediate and student models now have thumb triggers, rings or saddles for just such situations.

The old solution, still viable, is to have a tuba/mouthpiece combination with "wide" slotting so you can center pitch, and pull 1 & 2 slightly so that the combination can be lipped with either no or a moderate pull, but without setting the slides so far that each valve by itself is too flat to center or lip up to pitch.

imperialbari wrote:Use 3rd.

K

I agree.

It's not the tuning mechanics I am asking about. This is going by far too quickly to lip or pull (and 1 is vented) no matter how big your slots are. As for 3rd, I tune my 3 valve so that I have 23 spot on. Therefore 3rd is just as flat as 12 is sharp. It is simple when the line is slow enough. I just pull 1.

I should have asked my question in a different way. Has anyone else noticed a different effect on the other members of your group's intonation when the moving bass line is part of an arppegiated chord as opposed to a scale wise movement? I think I have, but I'm wondering if it is my imagination. They don't seem to be bothered at all if the out of tune note is part of a scale. The real answer of course is to play a tuba that is in tune with itself.......ie. My church's VMI 3301. I've been enjoying it long enough now that I had forgetten all about this intonation stuff.

No horn is "in tune with itself".

Even when one uses the equally-out-of-tune "Equal Temperament", valve combinations cause slight problems, which are STILL not entirely erased by any of the compensation systems in use.

Using one's ears, and not being tied down by a keyboard, a brass group may be using any one of a collection of earlier temperaments which utilize perfect intervals. These [especially] still require tonal adjustment.

ANY tuba is subject to these vagaries.

Some are more receptive to strongly centered embouchures, which in turn, need to be driven by discerning ears.

I, personally, find my mid-70's small bore 184 CC to be very receptive to this kind of input, and therefore, almost fly-by-wire.

I believe what you are referring to, then, is not if a horn is in tune with itself (or other instruments), but how it responds to YOU personally.

How fast does that first valve move? On my horns I would get first valve about as fast as a trombone slide. Seriously. You could work some basic exercises (slur: 2 - 1&2 - 1 - 1&2 - 2 - 1&2 - 1::) in multiple registers to get the slide action to correspond correctly.

If they are complaining about the 1&2 combo in 16th note passages, I would call b.s. on them.

Sidenote: I find it odd that the VMI 3301 is more in tune than the 184. Very odd.

Matthew Gilchrest wrote: If they are complaining about the 1&2 combo in 16th note passages, I would call b.s. on them.

Sidenote: I find it odd that the VMI 3301 is more in tune than the 184. Very odd.

This particular passage is quarter notes in a quick cut time, or 8th notes if you will. It is not them calling my attention to it. Just my ears hearing problems we never had before. The VMI may just be a very good example as it is the only one of it's kind I have played. It is very in tune, almost scary in tune. My 184 is a very typical example of a German rotary with all the + and - of that type. The only note on the horn that has ever given me insurmountable trouble is the ff B at the beginning of the Phillips Toccata. My newly refurbed O-99 may replace it, we'll see. The jury is still out.

How is it that blaming intonation on small instruments results in a problem?

The other variable here is that the Miraphone 184 has a bell much further away if you arre talking about the piston VMI. Though things may have sounded different to you, it may not been any more out of tune.
Also, I like to set the #2 slide 2-5 cents flat. That’s just kind of saggy, but not noticeable to anyone without a tuner in their hand. That helps the 1&2 combinations.

Matt Walters wrote: it may not been any more out of tune.
Also, I like to set the #2 slide 2-5 cents flat.

My Korg says the VMI is just about perfect. Strange I know, but nothing is out more than 15 cents.

I keep 2 out a bit, an inch maybe, on both. That is all it takes for the VMI but the 184 requires another inch from 1.

If you remember, I bought a 621 from you to replace the 184. I played the 621 exclusively for 3 months, picked up the 184 and fell in love all over again. Sold the 621. I am now in the same process with the Olds O-99. Time will tell. That 184 makes me sound better than I am, although it takes more work than I like. I would just play the VMI except that it is too darn heavy to schelp and not mine, borrowed from the church. BTW I see you have a Hojo FA at your place now. I might drive up and play it if it weren't so %#&^% far. How do you think it plays? Is it really a 17mm bore? What does it weigh?