TubeNet

I just saw this on the auction site. It's a new five-valve CC tuba with case for under $1900.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :middle:us" target="_blank

Ordinarily, I'd skip over an auction entry like that, but then I remembered that J.J. in Houston bought a Schiller BBb that he says is quite a respectable horn. Thus, I'd certainly like to know more about the Schiller CC five-valver. Anyone here on the board that has tried one?

It looks as if it is styled after the Miraphone 185 or 186. It may be worth a try with the seller's 7 day trial/return policy.

Be very aware when test-driving a tuba like this that the open notes are relatively in tune with each other. I have found in the German-style rotary valved tubas, if the taper of the horn is not exactly right, many of your open notes will not fall where they should, pitch-wise and alternate fingerings must be used. Also, check for side-to-side play, end-play as well as good compression compression in the valves. Such quality control, is often not emphasized in cheaper instruments.

I have found in my thiry-some years as a brass player, if something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

If you do try the tuba, keep us posted as to the results.

Good Luck if you try it. It could end up costing you around $200 as shipping is probably not refunded and return shipping would be paid by you.

They seem to be learning pretty fast. One factor is how long it takes them to collect, process and respond to market input and implement corrective action. They have to making way more BBbs - and with that product mix, I would expect CC quality to lag quite a bit. But hey - the more we buy, the better they'll get.

the elephant wrote:

jeopardymaster wrote:But hey - the more we buy, the better they'll get.

China - Industrial America, New and Improved!

All those who like to bash big evil China should collect everything in your home that was made/assembled in China (oh, by the way, that includes the computer you are using to read this--ALL computer chips are made in guess where) and replace it---good luck with that.

Another thing: Miraphones, MWs, Cervanys, Hirsbrunners, Yamahas are NOT made in the US but noone is bashing Europe or Japan....interesting, isn't it????

Stop blaming the Chinese for a situation WE helped create.

JJ

Parts of this debate raise the question:

Which is easier to make: A reliable tuba or a reliable computer?

Counted by output it appears the tubas are harder to make.

Klaus

we'll I don't see any reason to be bashing at the Japanese, they make some quality stuff there

imperialbari wrote:Parts of this debate raise the question:

Which is easier to make: A reliable tuba or a reliable computer?

Counted by output it appears the tubas are harder to make.

Klaus

a) there are an *awful* lot of unreliable computers sold
b) you neglect the financial gain offered for the two tasks: computer vs. tuba; give me the world-wide computer market, and I'll show you how to make a *very* reliable tuba.

Ace wrote:Anyone here on the board that has tried one?

IF this is the same 186 copy that Dillon Music is importing and stamping their own name on (looks identical), it's a great horn...

Plays as even and in tune as a 186, maybe even more so. Slightly bland sounding to my ears, compared to a Miraphone, but a very clear, clean, focused sound. Build quality seems excellent, rotors are silent and quick.

(Disclaimer - I don't know if the horn I played at Dillon Music had been tweaked by Matt.)

I came very close to buying it, and may still get one at some point. Absolutely amazing for a CC tuba in that price range, and great for a CC tuba in ANY price range.

For $1900 how can you go wrong?

the elephant wrote: The Chinese are giving us a serious push off the top of the hill. Will we stay up here or will we be rolling down calamitously in the next few years? Or are we already down there and just becoming cognizant of the fact?

We (North America & Europe) don't need to make anything, we'll just capitalize on our intellectual resources and stuff. That's what they used to say, anyway - haven't heard that one for a while. I'm just crossing my fingers that the ecological devastation China is experiencing will keep it from capitalizing on its successes the way it could if it were healthy.

It is often possible to find alternatives - things that are not made in China, and ways to think about the things we buy in terms of quality and longevity and not just price. Those of you who are comfortable with the idea that everything might as well be made in China, go ahead and do what you want, you have a lot of company, but don't fill up web forums with your lame excuses.

Great attitude!

And I like your thoroughness demonstrated by abandoning your usual nylon wigs:

What I said: You are so profoundly thorough!

Oh, what a beacon of consistent thinking!

Any black powder left over from that wedding shoot-out at your place?

K

the elephant wrote: I am not bashing them. I am pointing out our new reality, which was Made in the USA.

However, I have never seen European tubas of the quality that was coming out of China a few years ago. Never. And you can almost always get repair parts, and many shops actually STOCK the parts of these tubas! I have never seen any shop anywhere that stocked Jin Bao parts…

The Chinese are giving us a serious push off the top of the hill. Will we stay up here or will we be rolling down calamitously in the next few years? Or are we already down there and just becoming cognizant of the fact?



We need to wake up NOW!

And keep in mind the Chinese government's Human Rights record. They ARE evil.

The horns will get better--more people will buy them and eventually there will be available replacement parts. There is obviously a market for these horns and, especially in this economic climate, it is only going to grow--like it or not.

Yes China's government is evil---but what does it say about us when we do billions of dollars in trade with them?? We are their BIGGEST CUSTOMER.

Gotta go--looking for a new semi-auto scatter gun for the house (suggestions anyone?)

JJ

Musical instruments are tools for cultural expressions.

In Italy there was a symbiosis between the virtuoso violin playing/writing, and the makers of the best violins known so far.

In Central Europe as of almost 200 years ago there was a symbiosis between the inventors and developers of techically improved brasses and the musicians expressing themselves through these improved brasses.

Western music is not a core part of mainland Chinese culture. The local makers of brass instruments never will be driven by the same musical motivation as seen in the above samples.

Klaus

When yamaha, and Jupiter first came out ... their horns were not the best either... you can't go from not making horns to being a master craftsman without cranking out some crap. just my two cents .. in 10 years these might actually be very nice horns

ztuba wrote:When yamaha, and Jupiter first came out ... their horns were not the best either... you can't go from not making horns to being a master craftsman without cranking out some crap. just my two cents .. in 10 years these might actually be very nice horns

As I understand it, the Japanese started out on a much higher level of tech and industrial experience. And for reasons yet unknown to me the Japanese have a much greater affinity towards Western music, also in the band/military forms.

Taiwan may have its own, somewhat later, motivations to lean towards the West.

Klaus

ztuba wrote:When yamaha, and Jupiter first came out ... their horns were not the best either... you can't go from not making horns to being a master craftsman without cranking out some crap. just my two cents .. in 10 years these might actually be very nice horns

Give it 3-5 years before they are on par with the European horns. I am old enough to remember when Yamaha produced crappy tubas and alot of people dismissed them--that is no longer the case because Yamaha adapted and improved the quality. Do not underestimate China's ability to do the same in order to give people what they want. I hope the U.S. and European tuba makers are paying attention.

JJ

The same way people swear by car makers ("I'll never buy an American/Japanese/Korean/etc. car")...I'll never buy a Chinese tuba.

Don't care, just won't do it.

Some of you may have seen my post about the Schiller "Chinese" .547 (3 leadpipes, Thayer type valve) trombone I bought last spring.
It doesn't play as well as a Shires but it was $600 or $700 or around that. But I can tell you that it plays as well as a Bach 42.

Now that brings me to reveal that since I bought the Chinese 5v C ($785 - had some bell damage) and the 4v Hirsbrunner 192 copy ($1680) I have sold my Rudy 4/4 C, B&S PT20p and Besson 981. Not that I wasn't happy with these horns but I could see the writing on the wall (the Great Wall) that the price of tubas will be eventually driven down by these cheaper Chinese imports. Maybe 5 years down the road, the resale value of these fine German and somewhat British instruments will not be so high as it has been in the good old days.

I tested the Rudy and the Chinese C at an orchestra rehearsal and the brass section liked the Chinese better. No joke. I'm not arguing the craftsmanship of Rudolf Sr and Jr (I saw them work on my 5/4 back in 1987), I'm saying that when I played them side by side, there wasn't $10k worth of difference in the sound; not for our smaller per service orchestra as I've given up the idea that some day, I would play in the NY Phil. I also use it in quintet (works very well) and everyone likes the sound.

Imagine the effect of Asian imports on the US/Canada car industry if there would be no protectionism / duties / tariffs / bunch of ever increasing "safety" regulations. I might even be able to buy one of these 660 cc engine micro vans seen all over the world except in the US and Canada. But I can buy a useless Hummer with these big bumper towing hooks that are so useful in urban situations. OK, I'm ranting now...

Sylvain "who has no problem playing/owning Chinese instruments" Gagnon

Horns I still have:
Older silver King Bb 2341
B&H 1942 Imperial Eb
Schiller Bb (the Hirsbrunner copy)
Schiller C (The Miraphone copy)
VMI 3301 Bb (the B&S PT20P Bb version)
Miraphone 281 6v (waiting for a Chinese copy to come out)
B&H Imperial Euph
Yamaha YEP-321s Euph
Kanstul 1670 George Roberts Bass Trombone
Schiller Axial Flow Large Bore tenor
Olds Opera O-25 Large bore tenor
Olds LA Studio Small bore
Olds Special Small bore
Conn 6H Silver (1962)
King Silver Flugabone
Olds silver in-slide tuning small bore
B&H Imperial .525 Medium Tenor
Conn 26K silver

Used to have:
Rudy 5/4 C
Yamaha YEB-381s
MW 2155
B&S 4197 PT-20P
Besson 983s
Besson 983
Besson 981
Rudy 4/4 c
King 2340s '60s model
Conn 38K Silver
King Bb Silver sousa
Hirsbrunner HB 2p (Army horn)
Mirafone 186 Bb (Army Horn)
Mirafone 186 C (AF Horn)
Rudy 5/4 Gold brass (Navy Horn)