TubeNet

I'm wondering what mouthpiece people prefer to start 6th grade tuba players on.

Personally I'm against Helleburgs, but I'm curious about others' opinions.

Conn Helleberg 7B.

When I start beginners, I send them to the store to get a Bach 18 or a a Conn Helleberg 7B depending on what's in stock. Without fail, the kid that sounds the best soonest is always the one that got the 7B. This year, I'm just ordering 7B's and I'll sell them to the kids directly.

My $.02.

If this is truly their first playing "experience", the mouthpiece matters little.


They aren't going to sound too good, and instruction is worth 99.99999% and the mouthpiece almost nill. Plug in a 24AW or a 32E and teach em how to play.


Be careful not to ingrain this "equipment" solution concept in them so young.

I agree that the big matter here is the quality of instruction. Beginners won't be too negatively affected by mouthpieces, unless you give them something that's absurdly large or small. I voted 24AW simply because that's what I started on, and I have a bit of a soft spot for the old thing.

I started on a standard Conn Helleberg. Seemed to work fine.

tubamonster

24AW. Took me all the way to college. The Helleberg is too deep for most 6th graders, IMO. The kids who show above average command of the tuba in late middle school and high school can be introduced to the Helleberg.

Eric "who has a 6th grade low brass player at home" L.

At least in Europe most student brasses come with mouthpieces so small and shallow, that they are useless for most players beyond the 1st year of teaching.

This is most annoying, as many teachers, and especially many parents, find the extra costs for an adequate mouthpiece, or rather the costs for a useless mouthpiece a waste.

Yet this marketing scheme is not entirely silly. Some instruments are sold to “street customers” with no brass training, and these small mouthpieces make it possible for the from-scratch players to make sounds on instruments of whatever quality, which is considered a good salespoint for selers and buyers alike.

One lesson for me, is that it would be silly by be to encourage young students using the same equipment as I prefer. For young tubists not to loose the spirit, give them a small tuba with a shallow mouthpiece.

Klaus

my first "proper" mouthpiece was a VB 25, not too deep or wide, but helped the sound. But I had been playing for some years before i got that one.
So long as the mouthpiece is clean and free from damage, it probably doesn't mateer what a player uses for the first 4-5 years.

Still a bit of a loaded question. When I was in 6th grade, I was 5'8" and 180lbs. I have seen 6th grader males who are 5' even and 85 pounds. And that is not even dealing with the lip/face/dental structures that vary from student to student.

There are 6th graders who can start on a Bach 32E and some that can start on a Bach 7. A Conn 7B or Bach 24AW might be a good middle ground and/or meed the needs of most students, but they might outgrow them quickly, or never at all.

FWIW, when I was playing trumpet in 7th grade, I was playing a Bach 3 (not the shallower "C") equivalent by the end of my first year.

The Bach 18 is a good starting point. after i took a long time off from the horn(10 years). i am playing the Bach 18. i never like the feel of the bach mpc but it is helping getting my embouchure stronger at the center. i am happy that i made the change.

My 11 year old son can blow notes on my mouthpieces, which are @ 1.28 diameter, so I'm not so "sold" on the idea of starting a young player on a too-small mouthpiece.

If the horn is going to be any one of a number of the "popular" 3/4 sized tubas, then I would use nothing shallower than a Conn Helleberg 7B in order to get some decent tone out of the horn. All of these 3/4 sized horns really have edgy, crappy tone with a bowl mouthpiece.

Then I would get him into a Conn Helleberg 120S as soon as the young person has the breath support to handle it, as it is still the best, cheapest, all-round mouthpiece out there, and the basis and point of departure for many, many mouthpiece models.

If the person ends up marching with a 14K, Jupiter or King, then the 7B will work great. If a 20K is used, then I'd use a Blessing 18, "The best 18 Bach never made," on that to get a little more overtones and projections.

Then if the School has rotary tubas, I'd use the Blessing 18; if it has King, Jupiter or any other similar tubas in high school, the Conn Helleberg 120S.

Then, finally, if the student shows great potential, then off to private lessons and a more bespoke fitting of a mouthpiece of any one of a number of different makes and models from there.

I demonstrated this to a private teacher at a music store a few months ago. He had his Reynolds Contempora Recording Bass in to see if he wanted to sell it. I asked to play it. He gave me his Bach 24AW, and the horn sounded thin, like I had never graduated from high school. I asked the clerk for something with a good funnel, and what was available was a Schilke Helleberg. I inserted it, blew a few notes, and blew the store away. With the Schilke H, it had depth, projection, tone, and fluidity that the bowl mouthpiece just could not give to the .687 bore.

Now, I have a friend who is a high school band teacher whose primary personal instrument is bass bone. Unfortunately, he goes the other way, to quote, "getting the largest mouthpiece I can find and make him work into it." Now, if by the largest mouthpiece he means a Conn H120, then great. But I'm not so sure he doesn't mean something in the 33+mm cup range, which is too large for a developing jaw and embouchure of most average stature students.

Yes, it was pointed out that for a beginner a mouthpiece doesn't matter that much, but if you have a choice going in, why not get him a good one to start anyway.

BTW: my son sounds the best on a Wick 2L, even with its wide throat and backbore. He can't get more than a note or two out of it without running out of breath, but he gets a great tone for his age out of that one or two notes.

Unfortunately, his school band director will not start a 6th grader on low valved brass of any kind, and waits until middle school to switch. #@!!.

My band director started tuba players on a euph using the tuba book, reading the fingerings for BBb tuba, but sounding them up an octave. That is not quite so bad of a switch, but not really optimal either. And I understand the problems of actually holding on to a tuba for some 6th graders are taller than I am, and others don't look like they are big enough to be in the grade.

So much for my rant.

I personally think all middle schools should use Eb tubas rather than the grainy small bore 3/4 BBb tubas. But that's for another rant.

Another solution that my school used was to use Wenger chairs and have the middle school tuba players play a souzy, usually a King fiberglass (pre-cyborg). Then the student used to playing a full sized instrument, without some of the logistical problems of a full sized instrument with a less than full grown person playing it.

With pretty decent results, I started on a 24AW, when I got to high school my band director switched me to a Conn Helleberg. That got me through until College just fine.

A Bach 24AW is on the small side, in inner diameter, so it seems like it would be ideal for a smallish young beginner. However, the outside diameter of that big cushion rim, which has to fit between the kid's nose and chin, is bigger than most of the biggest mouthpieces made. I'm sure a lot of players successfully started on a 24AW, but wouldn't it make more sense to have a thinner rim on that size mouthpiece for young beginners?

I had good results with my Yamaha 67-C4 and I always had a "characteristic" sound but that has more to do with me than the mouthpiece. The only fault I had with it is that it's fairly heavy compared to most other "beginner" mouthpieces but it was a good mouthpiece!

As a Brit I started on a Wick 3L. I now play a 1L! Big difference, but over here the beginner process usually involves a rather beaten up ex-military 'state owned' instrument and you generally start with the mouthpiece it comes with, which in the UK is a Wick! Obviously if there are obvious problems you would change mouthpiece. I switch between the PT24 for solo work and the Wick 1 for Ensemble.

Bach 18, for now.

When you're ready, the Sidey Stainless steel Helleberg is really great.
It may take you 30 years to get there, though.

Enjoy the journey. It's worth it.

Doug Elliott wrote:A Bach 24AW is on the small side, in inner diameter, so it seems like it would be ideal for a smallish young beginner. However, the outside diameter of that big cushion rim, which has to fit between the kid's nose and chin, is bigger than most of the biggest mouthpieces made. I'm sure a lot of players successfully started on a 24AW, but wouldn't it make more sense to have a thinner rim on that size mouthpiece for young beginners?

The Bach 25 is close to what you are describing (slightly smaller than the 24AW), but it is not promoted much. I ordered a Kelley 25 for my son to try if he comes to his senses and decides to ditch the euph for the tuba ...

Eric "who thinks smaller kids are usually not encouraged to try the tuba" L.

I'll go the Bill Bell route on this one (assuming that 6th grade is beginner level): whatever came with the horn is fine.

As long as the quality of construction is there with the mouthpiece and horn, for a beginner I don't think it will make much difference. What you're really focusing on is the fundamentals of playing. Until fundamentals are under control, I wouldn't worry too much about the mouthpiece, because I don't believe it will make much difference. If, in some rare instance, the mouthpiece that came with the horn just won't work, I would go with one of the old Bach standards, preferably an 18 or 24AW (in that order).

I usually go with a 25 with the young ones. These days, I tell them to get a Kelly and pick a cool color that they like. It's cheaper than the brass counterpart and more indestructable. As they grow a little older, I usually get them on an 18.

Helleburg 120s.