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I found out today that for orchestra next year, there are a few cimbasso parts. I don't have a horn, but would like to get as close to an original sound as possible. This got me to thinking. What if I got a trombone with F attachment, bent the tubing between the nut and the rotor 90 degrees? I'd take out the inner slide (maybe) and put a (possibly?) 4v rotary Eb set on (or something similar). Then, I would reverse the F trigger so it was naturally engaged, and add a neck and tuning bit (from a sousaphone) to get the 90 degree turn for the mouthpiece, and to add enough legnth for the horn to be in Eb.
Could this work? And does anyone have parts that could be sold for this?

If it has good intonation, any 3/4 BBb small bore (@.656), small bell tuba will also get you close.

Tuba Guy wrote:I found out today that for orchestra next year, there are a few cimbasso parts. I don't have a horn, but would like to get as close to an original sound as possible. This got me to thinking. What if I got a trombone with F attachment, bent the tubing between the nut and the rotor 90 degrees? I'd take out the inner slide (maybe) and put a (possibly?) 4v rotary Eb set on (or something similar). Then, I would reverse the F trigger so it was naturally engaged, and add a neck and tuning bit (from a sousaphone) to get the 90 degree turn for the mouthpiece, and to add enough legnth for the horn to be in Eb.
Could this work? And does anyone have parts that could be sold for this?

I see your ideas, but I don’t believe in them.

My B&H Imperial G bass trombone in G and D, has too small a bore compared to modern 2 valve Bb bassbones, even those with a uniform slide bore of 0.562". Te sound is fine, but the dynamic response would take a lot of work for me to get more even.

The initial tubing being formed by the outer slide might be right, but you will experience narrower passages, when you couple it with the bell section of a Bb bass trombone. Ypu will sense these narrowings as stuffiness.

Sam Gnagey uses the bell and bows from marching baritones. Wrecked baritones with top or front action valves may work just as well as sources. Better proportions for a cimbasso and hardly more expensive than a trombone bell section with a working valve.

Klaus

I found these on ... well... you know where.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-old-Bb-trombon ... 911.c0.m14" target="_blank

http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-old-valve-coil ... 286.c0.m14" target="_blank

Either should do the trick. And for these prices you could even afford to have some work done.

Before I changed the design of my horns to the more conventional "L" shape I used to them using baritone (F/Eb) or euphonium (CC/BBb) bodies and some cylindrical tubing. On some horns I kept the original valve section, lengthened the slides and just added the extra cylindrical tubing just after the valve section to meet with the small end of the main tuning slide. I also built some with tuba valve sets but they came out looking a little funky and they didn't play much better. If you're going to build one I suggest doing it this way. It's probably the most cost/time efficient and the end result is pretty good.

I can't seem to find a pic of my older style Cimbassi but here's a pic of my latest Cimbasso-like euphonium-ish shaped horns just to show you what happens when you shove twice the tubing into a euphonium. This is the Contrabass Trombonium, built about 10 months ago. It's in BBb with a .661" bore and an 11" bell. The body is about the size of those old Getzen marching baritones and the bell is from an Olds(?) euphonium. It was built to resemble (kinda) the original trombonium. The F and Eb horns don't end up looking so cluttered.

Looks good!

Klaus

Hm, those look good (and so does that rotary bass bone). Gotta figure out if I can get that money...
If not, could a sousaphone with a really shallow mouthpiece get a similar effect (maybe an Eb sousa?)

http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Pr ... 576-4.aspx


Some people like them, some don't. You can also get them bent for not a lot more (or the same? the below website has them at the same price), but the 5 valve model is QUITE a bit more (Cerveny also makes a big bore model now).

http://www.cerveny.co.at/ventilposaune/cimbasso.php


You might be able to swing something with Dillon's for your Eb and 28J, although I don't know why you would want to get rid of the 28J.
You could also try a very small mouthpiece in the Eb. I used a 2A contrabone mp in my old Eb and it worked out really well (and I plan on doing it again when I get another one). You could even try to get a recording bell for it!


I bet Kanstul could make a pretty slick cimbasso without too much difficulty. They have bass and contrabass trombone bell bells and valves. Something with a bass or contra bell and 5 of the contra .62x valves (the 2 contra valves are different bores) could be pretty slick. But that kinda goes against the do-it-yourself thing.

Well, the few Cervenys I've tried (the 641, and my Kaiser) are both good horns. Not that this will translate to their cimbassi, but I can hope it does.
Ideally, I would like to not get rid of the 28J. It's a nice horn, and is good for keeping next to a computer and practicing while surfing the internet. In terms of sound, it's not really something I intend to perform with (though if you'd want to trade a cimbasso or something for the horn, I'd be happy).
Is there any way to get a valve section (for cheap!!!) that can hook up to my bass trobone's bell section? I think that would be a pretty good compromise, if we could find something (fwiw, it's a Kanstul 1585T, .562 bore)

The reason I was looking into making one myself (as opposed to getting one) is mostly just the cost factor. I was hoping that some of the repair people would have a trombone with a slide that doesn't work (making it unusable as a trombone) and a valve section from a horn that is no longer playable that they would be willing to get rid of for cheap.

J.c. Sherman made one out of a tuba valve set, a lot of cylindrical tubing, and some sort of bell (I bet you could use a baritone, marching baritone,..... body). His contrabone has a euph body.

http://sites.google.com/site/jackofallb ... nstruments" target="_blank




What's wrong with the 28J?

I'll definitely look into that.
And nothing's wrong with the 28J. It's just that I have my Martin, which is very similar and has a sound that I like better. I actually got the Conn from my teacher (in exchange, when i turn 21, I'll buy him a beer). I know that it's probably not going to go into my regular rotation (I already have a fairly large 3v front action piston horn), so I have it available for my friends who are ed majors, or who because of graduating, no longer have use of the school horns.

An opera bass trombonist I know made his first cimbasso from one of these F Bass trombones:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-old-valve-coil ... 286.c0.m14

Get help bending the tubing on the bell section. It worked... OK.

I don't know that I would risk a job just to play an "iffy" homebuilt. You might want to approach the orchestra with the idea of them renting a cimbasso , it might not end up being a lot better than the homebuilt but it would be a lot cheaper.

A Mirafone Eb valve section, a Getzen trombone bell, an old alto horn bottom bow for the bell bow, a custom leadpipe... and enough 'King-ish' 11/16" bore inner and outer slide tubing to make the whole mess into a BBb cimbasso:

Dan, That looks better design than most commercially available cimbasso

Neptune wrote:Dan, That looks better design than most commercially available cimbasso

Thanks! I think so. The horn sits on a peg like a bass clarinet and has good balance.

Bob Kolada wrote:J.c. Sherman made one out of a tuba valve set, a lot of cylindrical tubing, and some sort of bell (I bet you could use a baritone, marching baritone,..... body). His contrabone has a euph body.

http://sites.google.com/site/jackofallb ... nstruments" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Thanks for sharing it - modesty forbids

This instrument was used several times with both the Cleveland Opera and The Cleveland Orchestra. I liked it well, but it got hired too often, so I switched to a slide instrument so I'd get hired with it This instrument is now in Seattle. The Bell was from a slingerland G baritone Bugle, the backbow from a King 2280 Euphonium top bow. The valves were from a Cleveland (King) sousaphone.

As for my Contra bone - that bell is actually from an Olds G Baritone Bugle. Another double-slide contra I built in BBb/FFF/DDD used a similar bell from a getzen, and a custom back-bow from sheetbrass. Pain in the buns!

I really like the Olds Euph-i-basso. I've been pondering something somewhat similar for pre-"trombono contrabasso Verdi" cimbasso parts, such as music written for the early valved ophicleide, Tuba Basso, Bombardone, and the serpent-related cimbasso. I'll be sure to share whan I'm done

J.c.S. (who notes a 4v rotory Bb trombone is just a tenor trombone).

I actually tried playing my Amati euph with a slide yesterday. My bass slide wouldn't fit well enough, but my King 606 slide did and it played in a sharp F. I felt kinda weird with the euph body on my left shoulder though.

I stuck the slide receiver into the small side of the euph's main slide, as it looked to me like your contrabone used (what I thought was) a euph body right up til right after the valves and as such would be closer to F than what I did.


Steve Ferguson has a G contra made out of a Getzen .562/78 handslide, a stretched out Holton 10" bell, and I think Holton rotary valves which he described on the trombone website. I've considered doing something similar with my 1062, but I really don't want to play a DEpendent G/D/B instrument!

J.c. Sherman wrote:J.c.S. (who notes a 4v rotory Bb trombone is just a tenor trombone).

Yes, I know. I posted it because it would be a good starting point for a trombone to cimbasso/contrabone project. It's a good size, it's in good shape, it's got 4 valves and it's cheap! The Cerveny F only has a .559" bore so I'm sure this would convert very well.