TubeNet

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JMG,

Disclaimer: I don't have a DMA.

A key component in most terminal degree programs (one or two exceptions come to mind; but I'm speaking generally) is researching and writing an original thesis. The fact that you are already studying the tuba at a graduate level leads me to believe that you have a solid understanding of music in general, are familiar with practice routines, and could develop the necessary level of keyboard skills with relatively minimal investment.

Since I've never met you or read any of your work, my next statement is essentially based on a hunch I get from reading your posts. Writing does not come as easily to you as it may to other students. If I were in your situation, I would invest some of your non-tuba schedule in taking some writing workshop courses. In other words: you are a good, perhaps natural, musician; it will not be difficult to cultivate piano competence and you should not fret. You are not a natural writer; it will be difficult to write at the graduate level (i.e. a thesis) if you do not spend time practicing those skills.

I will now step aside so that DMA holders and candidates can address the actual question.

PRB

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Most places do not have a piano requirement for DMA students in brass, there are a couple that do. You will have to check the degree requirements to the schools you are interested in attending. Just as a general rule I would carefully learn about the degree requirements to any school you might want to pursue a DMA. Better to know going in than be surprised once you get there.

bloke wrote:A "musician" probably should be at least a so-so pianist and (probably) guitarist.

A "______ *player" though, probably only needs to know how to look at black spots, and do things with their hands/face/feet (etc.) with that one instrument.

In my experience, "musicians" get more calls to work that "_______ players" do.
___________________________________________
* "operator"...(??)

This is a well put statement and, in my opinion, 100% accurate.

North Texas makes all new DMA students take a piano deficiency test involving harmonizing, sight reading, and realization of figured bass. If you fail it, you have to take graduate piano review.

tubashaman2 wrote:Biggs,

I appreciate your concern, but I am not a poor writer. I am just tired, studying for stuff, holding 4 other conversations online, while trying to type on here at many times and sometimes my editing is lousy, which I appologize for, and thus do not post on here much anymore, but this is information I really would like to know from numerous people.

Again, sorry (its late so please pardon bad grammar and syntax) for any misunderstanding, but I would like to hear from people who are currently DMAs, who are currently pursuing DMAs or who have started a DMA but quit for any number of reasons to let me know about their universitys' requirements (if any) regarding piano for tuba performance majors.

You spend more time asking for us to forgive your errors than it would take to correct them before you submit your post. The bold lettered words I quoted have red lines under them in the text editor telling you they are not correct. You may not have a problem with the way you write, however, the evidence we here on the internet are observing tells a different story. Biggs does make a good point.

I have a DMA from Eastman, 1982. At that time, they did not have any piano requirement for that degree.

SK

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I know several people around here with DMA's or similar terminal degrees that are unemployed or underemployed.

Many successful musicians / teachers with DMA's did not earn their doctoral degree until after they landed their big job. Many still don't have more than a B.M. or an M.M.

Food for thought, not criticism.

(Oh, and I sightread piano and improvise accompaniments 5 days a week every third week... at my IT dayjob.)

I have a counter-question: why do you want a DMA?

That is...once you have it, what will you be that you are not now, and what will you be able to do that you can't do now?

Answer that question, and the answers to the rest of your interminable questions will become clear, even to you.

To help you answer the question, consider: who are your role models? Do they have DMAs? Who do you know who is excellent in every way that you consider important, but is being held back in his career because he doesn't have a DMA?

In other words - who (not what) do you want to be when you (eventually) grow up?

for that matter, why are you doing a MM? Same questions as above.

None of the places I auditioned required any sort of piano diagnostic or proficiency.

That being said, you should keep your skills up anyway. I sure wish I had! I think the ability to do simple chord progressions and read simple things (Bach style chorales, sacred hymns, star spangled banner in 4 parts, etc) is a pretty good skill to possess as a music teacher. I can't do that, and I wish I could. I am just starting my DMA, and hoping to have time to work on the piano skills again to get to that point.

That's all I got!

Andy Larson

the elephant wrote:Chicks dig men with keyboarding skillz, James. Do it for the right reason.

what he said..........that's the best (and probably most accurate) reason I've heard so far.......

dwaskew wrote:

the elephant wrote:Chicks dig men with keyboarding skillz, James. Do it for the right reason.

what he said..........that's the best (and probably most accurate) reason I've heard so far.......

You've officially killed another thread. Nice work, Doc!

Not on point, Joe. The question was why *you* want a DMA. If you don't want one, then
you are disqualified. I'm interested in hearing real answers from the people who actually *want* one. I'd prefer to hear from those who don't have one, but are still working on getting there.

Your answer, while vaguely interesting, and perhaps right for some people - is the answer of someone who has decided that he DOES NOT want one. Perhaps it would be better for you to remain silent and LISTEN to the answers given by those who *do*.

I, for one, am particularly interested in James' answers to my questions. If his answer is the same as yours, then perhaps we can solve all of his current problems very quickly. But...just consider for a moment...perhaps his answer is different from yours? It might happen, you know. Why don't we give him the floor and LISTEN to him?

bloke wrote:

sloan wrote:I have a counter-question: why do you want a DMA?

That is...once you have it, what will you be that you are not now, and what will you be able to do that you can't do now?

Answer that question, and the answers to the rest of your interminable questions will become clear, even to you.

To help you answer the question, consider: who are your role models? Do they have DMAs? Who do you know who is excellent in every way that you consider important, but is being held back in his career because he doesn't have a DMA?

In other words - who (not what) do you want to be when you (eventually) grow up?

for that matter, why are you doing a MM? Same questions as above.

I don't know if anyone likes this answer (which I've offered up more than once before)...

The purpose of a DMA is the same as that of a Cadillac (to a Cadillac dealership). Cadillac salesmen (at least, in the past) are/were supposed to drive Cadillacs. They are/were not allowed to sell them unless they drive them (again: if not true now, it was in the past). The same, basically, with this "DMA" and many other degrees. If one is to work for a firm that sells DMA's, one must own a DMA. ...If the employees of the the place that sells DMA's don't have them, why should anyone else want to buy them?

sloan wrote:I have a counter-question: why do you want a DMA?

That is...once you have it, what will you be that you are not now, and what will you be able to do that you can't do now?

Answer that question, and the answers to the rest of your interminable questions will become clear, even to you.

To help you answer the question, consider: who are your role models? Do they have DMAs? Who do you know who is excellent in every way that you consider important, but is being held back in his career because he doesn't have a DMA?

In other words - who (not what) do you want to be when you (eventually) grow up?

for that matter, why are you doing a MM? Same questions as above.

As someone in a similar position to James I'll take a stab at this. I'm working towards a MM in instrumental conducting with the possible eventual goal to obtain my DMA in conducting. I am pursuing my MM for three reasons.

1. To me this is the most important: I want to learn more about how to do my craft and learn from others who have different ideas and styles than my previous teachers any my prior experiences.

2. I would like to teach at the collegiate level and such need at minumum a Master's degree.

3. If I return to the public school setting then the MM will increase my salary base. While this is important to me and my future it is certainly not the only reason nor the mst important.

As far as a DMA, I would like to teach at a smaller college and most of those that I have talked to won't even look at you unless you have some sort of Doctorate or are in process, most often ABD. I realize that a number of the larger universities and bigger names in conducting don't have "doctored" professors but for some reason the smaller colleges deem this as a neccesity. My opinion is that they are trying to make up for being small schools by having a higher student to DMA/PHD instructor ratio. I don't know, just my thoughts from my discussions with a number of off small college instructors and administrators.

sloan wrote:To help you answer the question, consider: who are your role models? Do they have DMAs? Who do you know who is excellent in every way that you consider important, but is being held back in his career because he doesn't have a DMA?

While we wait for James to compose a response, I'll throw in my perspective of having wrestled with this at some length back in the day.

I wanted my MS because I wanted to validate what I knew that I knew. I had been lazy as an undergraduate and had missed the opportunity to get what there was to get from that experience, and I wanted another shot at it. That was my clear objective, and that clarity led to renewed motivation and hard work. The results I got exceeded my expectations, and in many ways formed my career.

Soon after getting the MS, I reached a realization that my personality (at the time) was not suited to the work I was doing (at the time). I thought an academic situation would tolerate my personality more readily than where I was. I spent a year looking into going back for the Ph.D., but in the end didn't do it because I wasn't willing to make it work out.

I had role models then, and only a few had doctorates. Many of my professional acquaintances who had doctorates were not my role models. Those who were did not attract my admiration because of their doctorate. I was not thinking in terms of becoming that sort of a teacher or that sort of a researcher. Had I thought about it in terms suggested by Dr. Sloan then, I would have abandoned the notion of escaping into academia much more quickly and with less anxiety.

For my master's program, however, those who I admired were academically rigorous while I was merely smart. I wanted to be like them, and all of them had subjected themselves to the discipline of grad school. Following Dr. Sloan's advice (without realizing it) led me to the proper motivations for grad school, and that led to good decisions about which subjects to pursue and it underpinned the resulting success.

This approach is useful for pondering any education or even job change. It turns out that I've been asking exactly these questions in considering a current change in direction.

Rick "pondering the requirements to becoming a role model to himself" Denney

While we're still waiting for James:

I got my DMA in 2006 from a large university in central NJ. To be quite honest, I went there for some very practical reasons:
1. I lived in Philly, and after starting to carve out a small niche there, I didn't want to move halfway across the country (or further) to get the degree. I wanted to play gigs and teach while I got the degree.
2. I found out what the requirements were for completion. Ask yourself this: What are the hurdles, as Scott Roeder said. Piano, theory/history diagnostic, recitals, lecture or dissertation?
3. I got funding from the University. If it makes financial sense, it makes the decision easier.

My advice for those of you (including James) who are thinking about a DMA:
1. Where do you want to live? Do you flourish in a small town, middle of nowhere? Do you want to live in/near a big city? Location should be a HUGE factor in deciding if and where you chose to go for this degree.
2. How much work are you willing to do? Some institutions require extremely rigorous academics as well as ancillary musical hurdles through which you must jump. Do you want to write a 200 page dissertation?
3. What money can you get from the school. Obviously, this matters.
4. Is landing a big playing gig the only thing you want to focus on?

Work that is specific to this degree is VERY hard to come by. But, most smaller schools require a completed DMA or intention of finishing within X number of years to even get an interview. Many schools have quotas such as "96% of our faculty needs to have their terminal degrees". Having the completed DMA increases your chance of getting an interview immensely, commensurate experience aside.
Having a DMA will not help you win a gig, jump start your solo career or land that prime teaching gig. But not having it will severely limit you, if you want to teach at many universities.

Jon Fowler

bloke wrote:

sloan wrote:Perhaps it would be better for you to remain silent and LISTEN to the answers given by those who *do*.

Perhaps not.

The wonderful think about "posts", Dr., is that one can simply choose to skip over them.

Specifically, a "Doctor(ate) of Musical Arts" is the one degree that I can think of where, singly, the reason people acquire them is to be employable by colleges and universities in order to sell more of them. I cannot think of another possible musical career path - no matter how lofty - where the potential employer specifically seeks those who hold this degree.

bloke "Is the tail chasing the cat, or is the cat chasing the tail?"

Well, I mostly agree with your statement, except that being employed as an instrument professor does not only mean teaching future PHD students...many of these teachers teach theory/ear training type classes, some musicology, music-ed students, etc...So, while many colleged "require" this piece of paper, it isn't only to sell more of them...though one could argue that the university culture today has led to this.

I would also argue though, if you as a player are very very good, you will likely not need more than a masters to teach at a school.

bloke wrote:

sloan wrote:Perhaps it would be better for you to remain silent and LISTEN to the answers given by those who *do*.

Perhaps not.

The wonderful think about "posts", Dr., is that one can simply choose to skip over them.

Specifically, a "Doctor(ate) of Musical Arts" is the one degree that I can think of where, singly, the reason people acquire them is to be employable by colleges and universities in order to sell more of them. I cannot think of another possible musical career path - no matter how lofty - where the potential employer specifically seeks those who hold this degree.

bloke "Is the tail chasing the cat, or is the cat chasing the tail?"

but, that wasn't the question. The question was: Why does James *want* to do a DMA. Why do you assume that the question is: what employers require it? If you listen, you might find that there are other reasons...

But, perhaps I am too optimistic.