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Flipping that back, I think it's because bass tubas are "weird" and aren't tubby-sounding. The whole dark/round/deep/too-mellow/stick-in-the-deepest-mouthpiece-you-have-and-ignore-the-fact-that-you-sound-like-you're-playing-in-a-cellar (sorry about that one! ) thing doesn't work so hot with bass tubas, and when they're played that way only contributes to their "weirdness."

I spent all of July playing in a very good quintet on a very-blehhhh Hirsbrunner Eb , and I actually got a lot of comments/compliments to the opposite.

I still thought that the horn was too big/broad/.... I'm starting to think that I prefer a bass trombone (maybe contra or cimbasso, depending on the piece) for most small brass group playing. Tuba is just too different there, and I can still sound like the bass instrument of the group on bass trombone.

I think bass tubas still sound like "tubas," only more interesting overall.
I do like some contrabass tubas, so I'm not completely anti-contrabass.

I didn't learn contra bass tuba in HS. I didn't even learn trombone which is what I was supposed to be doing. My first tuba some 7 years ago was Lee Stofer's Pan American Eb that he put a 4th valve on at the Rudy shop. I really loved the sound and response of that horn, but I couldn't play it. It wasn't fingerings because I was coming from positions anyway. I finally figured out it was the key. The open fundamental as an Eb would freak me out. I had more clams than notes. I don't have perfect pitch. After sitting beside me for a few rehearsals/concerts tuben might argue that I don't even have very good relative pitch. There was something about that juxaposition of pitch from Bb to Eb, even if it was an octave off, that really messed me up. When I bought a BBb tuba all was suddenly right with the world. So now I play a small BBb. Not the best of all worlds maybe, but it suits me. I tried a MW 182 for a while as well. Lovely little thing. I just couldn't play it. My hat's off to those of you that can.

I agree with Bob on the bass trombone/quintet thing. I play bass trombone every chance I get but the quintet always gripes about it. They like that broad tuba foundation under them. I love the Anmerican Brass Quintet recordings. I see they are going to be performing in North Georgia in September. I won't miss it.

As an Englishman I suppose I look at this topic from bass tuba first, contrabass second.
To that end I think going to contrabass has everything to do with "resonance".

Sure, the full range of the repertoire can be played on a bass tuba and many players this side of the pond do a great job doing just that. However those players cannot make the same sounds as the best guys do on a contrabass (thinking Warren Deck etc etc).

John Fletcher got himself a contrabass after complaining too much of the repertoire lay in the 4th valve range of the Eb. The fact he got a 6/4 Holton might've been chance (whatever came available at the time) but he talked about enjoying the newfound "weight of sound" possible with it.

Anyway, for me I choose contrabass because of the resonance. I've tried just using Bass but always miss the depth of a contrabass in big ensembles.

And as an American...a smaller tuba must be inferior, so the bigger one is better (er...well, the second biggest it the best, since CC is better than BBb too.)

[tongue firmly in cheek ]

Many - musicians most of all, I'm afraid - are uncomfortable with change. And Americans hear the Tuba as an overwhelming present fundament which is inescapable for a radius of 5 city blocks. Anything else is unfamiliar and therefore wrong.

I'm generalizing. But it's true. Introduce a small (Bass) instrument, and two things happen: People who "love" tuba think there’s nothing there, and people who often “hate” the tuba suddenly may like the instrument. That bias of thinking of the “American” BAT sound as “THE” tuba sound has infected the whole world of western music.

Now, I’m a guy who makes no secret that the disappearance of national sounds is a sadness to me. In no other instrument is that disappearance more stark than in the tuba section; 60 years ago, there was a very broad base (no pun intended) of national sounds and characteristics. Bill Bell on one continent, Philip Catlinett (sp?) on the other, as well as Tuba Ut Française and Italian anomalies and F Alexanders, with the Kaiser BBbs whipped out to inflict dire injury at the express behest of a lunatic composer.

Americans, we like things BIG. Cars, houses, property, tubas, trumpet bores, bass trombone bores (bonezilla anyone?). And we are EXCITING! So we have made our Biga$$ophone the international norm in relatively short order.

But listen to recordings made with these smaller instruments. Are you listening to what’s there, or looking for what’s NOT there? How about our fellow musicians? What are they hearing? I love playing with a bassoonist in a duo; I certainly don’t think he needs a bigger one, or should be playing tenoroon. Neither do I listen to ABQ and think “where the he|| is the tuba?!?” Each musical creation should stand on its own merits, and not always be compared instantaneously to what we’re comfortable with. But too few do that.

I’ve heard on decent authority that much of Sam Pilafian’s recording with EBQ was on a MW 25. Yes, a BBb. EBQ has a %^@#$%^ HUGE sound on the recordings from that period. Chuck Daelenbach has a Schilke CC of completely different dimensions – also great! PJBE – Eb tuba, also great. But so many folks while I was in college began to poopoo any group who was not EBQ because they didn’t sound as big. Pshaw!

I have two quintets; one I play a larger horn with because I’m not the boss, nor do I really have a vote. The boss likes CC, so that’s what I use. But I still sneak in the F, Cimbasso, Bass Bone, Ophicleide, what have you whenever I think it’s appropriate and I can convince everyone else. About 50% of the time I win. In my other group, I play Eb. While the whole point of this second group is to create new timbres as an ensemble through varied instrumentation, we’ve found that changing the trombone to euph or tenorhorn – against my Eb – has as big an impact as my switching to Cimbasso. However, this is not the case when I’m on BAT. The trombonist can play accordion and the group barely sounds different, because the BAT sonically owns the group.

I’ve been watching YouTuba segments of German Brass Live at the Thomaskirche. I think Hilgers has the right idea. He uses the humungophone only when it’s really a sonic need to own that part of the work. Otherwise, he’s a deft artist on the F, nimble as he|| and dynamic and supportive and just as loud. I own the CD from that and on my good stereo, his choices make musical sense, and it’s breathtaking (I’m now excepting donations of a MW 197, BTW if anyone wishes to give to the cause).

I bring out the CC in my professional work when it’s expected of me. I rarely choose it; maybe 15% of the time am I playing CC because I thought it was the right tool for the job. I play my best on EEb. But it’s not what’s expected of me by many when I’m hired, especially the first time. But if you learn to make the most sound and the least sound on all big and small instruments, you can get to the point where you can bring what you think musically right/interesting/experimental with the trust of those around you.

But I still pull out the BAT for “12 days of Xmas” because I have Abe Torchinsky’s sound in my head for that, and he sounds… like a big American Sound. And sometimes, that’s quite nice too

J.c.S. (Bass Tuba Rocks!!!!)

J.c. Sherman wrote:I’ve heard on decent authority that much of Sam Pilafian’s recording with EBQ was on a MW 25. Yes, a BBb.

I did not know that. I didn't even suspect it. Thanks J.C.

I do believe that much of this is hogwash. Give an educated non-low brass musician a tuba recording... ask them if it is contrabass or bass.

If you all think that 25% or more of those people could tell you whether or not someone was playing bass or contrabass, you are sorely mistaken.

The truth of the matter is, we like to hear what we are used to hearing! It is the law of comfort. We are trained at a very young age to pursue a very lugubrious, broad, woofy sound here in the USA. If you are in France, you hear a bright extension of the trombone voice. If you are in England you pursue a vibrato, cored sound. Most of these differences we hear and pursue aren't even differences that other educated (non-low brass) musicians perceive.

Clouding this line that exists with us, but doesn't really exist much, are even more issues. Little contrabasses and big basses. In side by side recordings of me playing a Mirafone 186 against my Besson 983 (with a c4), you would think the 983 is the contrabass. So, if most people can't hear the difference and this difference exists from horn to horn... isn't this more an issue of what sound we want to hear, and not an issue of the bass tuba against the contrabass tuba?

What about people like Tim Buzbee who play and can kill, better than MOST contrabass players, famous orchestral excerpts on his smallish F? (he plays a mean CC in orchestra too) What about people like the russian pros, who cruise in the altitude on HUGE BBb orchestral horns and sound bright and soloistic?

Just as in music notation and many other facets of music, things exist because we (almost as much as baseball fans and chefs) are deeply rooted in tradition--whether or not we consciously make these decisions.

I like both bass and contrabass tubas, and both have their role. For singing lyrical parts, no doubt the bass tuba is preferable, but when a broad foundation is required for the ensemble, nothing is better than a contrabass tuba.

I come from the land of the Eb's and for years played one for everything. An Eb has the range and can do the job in orchestra, or band and if one has never known the sound of a big CC, or BBb it does the job well enough to keep the conductor happy. However, what it does not do is provide that broad foundation that a 6/4 contrabass tuba does.

I originally decided to get a big CC as I was finding in the low register I could just not give the sound the conductor of my orchestra (an organist by background) wanted. However once I got my Neptune I found that each ensemble where I have played it loves that broad sound. As one musician said, "the whole band sounds better with that big tuba foundation". That is the reason for contrabass tubas!

djwesp wrote:Clouding this line that exists with us, but doesn't really exist much, are even more issues. Little contrabasses and big basses. In side by side recordings of me playing a Mirafone 186 against my Besson 983 (with a c4), you would think the 983 is the contrabass.

Having played both, I personally think there is very little difference between a big Eb and a 4/4 CC in sound and they are virtually interchangeable.

The contrabass tuba needs to be 5/4, or preferably 6/4 in size to fully provide that broad foundation tone. It is not a matter of volume (a bass tuba can provide just as high decibels), but tone.

I'm sorry djwesp; I didn't mean to raise your ire.

One thing that probably could be inferred, but which I did not state specifically, was that some players (though darn few) like myself do not see the "broad foundation" of the Band/Orchestra as the be-all/end-all of the tuba sound. I may be chasing G. Verdi in searching for an instrument as part of his section more than one seeking to dominate the ensemble as a whole, sitting inevitably somewhat apart from the ensemble.

Some composers have written for this sound in mind; I’d have to be borderline nuts to play "American in Paris" on a YFB-621 F. Apart from some others, I would prefer not to play "Daphnis and Chloe" on a tuba at all, but a Euphonium, which some would say marks me as insane, but I relish the timbre of a blending instrument, which was probably more the imagined timbre. It would be unlikely that only 15% of tubists would hear a difference. And why limit ourselves to only one sound concept (not that anyone has claimed such).

And that is the principal reason to pick one instrument over the other. Sound. A component of sound is the overall shape of the notes - articulation, shape, timbre, cutoff; those elements change with the tuba to a small extent - the player makes the principal determination as to timbre.

All that bloviating aside, I suspect that this discussion will, logically end in "sound". As it should.

J.c.S.

The sound I heard when I was a kid was the oom pah of the tuba or maybe even the sousaphone. It's the sound that made me want to play the tuba. That same sound now is accompanied by the ringing of the cash register.
Anyone can play any instrument they want to play
Getting paid for it is a different matter entirely
Peace.
ASG

J.c. Sherman wrote:the principal reason to pick one instrument over the other. Sound.

Surely that is something we can all agree?

I love the sound of the Neptune, but am not so wedded to that broad tone to use for everything. Last week I played Brahms 2 on my PT-15 F tuba which to my ears was just right for that work - and I got compliments on its sound too!

J.c. Sherman wrote: Apart from some others, I would prefer not to play "Daphnis and Chloe" on a tuba at all, but a Euphonium, which some would say marks me as insane, but I relish the timbre of a blending instrument, which was probably more the imagined timbre. It would be unlikely that only 15% of tubists would hear a difference.

Speaking of this, how many tuba players have been tricked by the first track of the Gabrielli Philly/Chicago/Cleveland album?

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:Speaking of this, how many tuba players have been tricked by the first track of the Gabrielli Philly/Chicago/Cleveland album?

TexTuba wrote:

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:Speaking of this, how many tuba players have been tricked by the first track of the Gabrielli Philly/Chicago/Cleveland album?

No tuba.

Someone said a contrabass sounds like a tuba. Okay. But when I play an F, it still sounds like a tuba. I've never had anyone come up to me and ask, "What's that instrument? It doesn't sound like a tuba."

For me, it's whichever instrument makes it the easiest to produce the product. In quintet, I sound better and clam fewer notes using an F. Partly because the music is high, where the F is more secure, and partly because I don't have to hold back to keep from burying the group.

In band, my sound can get ugly with an F. Maybe I should be a better player, but I yam what I yam. Also, in band, I get cramps in my hands dealing with all those freaking valves. So, I sound better and clam fewer notes using a Bb.

When the band music gets high, life gets interesting. When the quintet music gets low, life gets interesting. But I pick the instrument that minimizes such interest. For me, it's all about getting through the gig without embarrassing myself.

Rick "and that's the truth" Denney

I think the current preference is due to the larger "pitch center" on most contrabass tubas. It makes it a bit easier for other brass players to fit inside of the sound and match pitch. While there are exceptions (like Germany in some cases) they are usually in groups with an excellent double bass section that serves the same purpose. I remember discussing the difference between the top tier orchestras and all the others, and it often came down to the foundation put out but the double bass section.

My thought is....and even if it's because I'm trying to validate my already developed opinion....is that playing a contrabass just feels good. It definitely has a depth to it and a slotting that is far different than that of bass tubas. ESPECIALLY when comparing a 5/4 CC to a small F tuba. I personally find that the lagre CC's can really sing, but in a different register...but man..I love getting a big giant horn.....

So I dunno....maybe noone can tell, but I can..even if it's because I'm brainwashed.

.....much of Sam Pilafian’s recording with EBQ was on a MW 25. Yes, a BBb. EBQ has a %^@#$%^ HUGE sound on the recordings from that period. Chuck Daelenbach has a Schilke CC of completely different dimensions – also great! PJBE – Eb tuba, also great. But so many folks while I was in college began to poopoo any group who was not EBQ because they didn’t sound as big.....

....of German Brass Live at the Thomaskirche. ........ I own the CD from that and on my good stereo, his choices make musical sense, and it’s breathtaking.....

.....But I still pull out the BAT for “12 days of Xmas” because I have Abe Torchinsky’s sound in my head for that, and he sounds… like a big American Sound....

Speaking of this, how many tuba players have been tricked by the first track of the Gabrielli Philly/Chicago/Cleveland album?

It is hard for me to remember, at times, but we have to keep in mind that on recordings, we are not hearing the artist themselves, but the recording engineer's interpretaion of the tuba tone!