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Joseph "who knows for sure there about 15-20 pages of posts on this 'discussion'" Guzman

A German sound will get you kicked out of an American orchestra. An American sound will get you kicked out of a German orchestra.
(look on Rick Denney's website. There's a great page about the different sounds on there)

Follow the lead and play an old American made small Eb tuba with top pistons.

Whilst visiting Sam Gnagey's place last month there was the opportunity to compare the bell of a old Holton 345 to that of a modern M-W Fafner. They were as far as could be seen of exactly the same profile, yet one is supposedly a classic American BAT and the other a leading German Kaiser model.

I have been told playing my rotary Melton Eb, that I still have a distinctive 'British Brass Band' tone, although playing a German rotary tuba.

I believe the player concept and style is the principal influence to sound, rather than model of tuba being played. Using a different tuba will simply help, or hinder the tubist towards producing their personal desired tone.

We tend to each prefer the tubas which help us produce 'our sound'.

Neptune wrote:Whilst visiting Sam Gnagey's place last month there was the opportunity to compare the bell of a old Holton 345 to that of a modern M-W Fafner. They were as far as could be seen of exactly the same profile, yet one is supposedly a classic American BAT and the other a leading German Kaiser model.

I have been told playing my rotary Melton Eb, that I still have a distinctive 'British Brass Band' tone, although playing a German rotary tuba.

I believe the player concept and style is the principal influence to sound, rather than model of tuba being played. Using a different tuba will simply help, or hinder the tubist towards producing their personal desired tone.

We tend to each prefer the tubas which help us produce 'our sound'.

I think this is the key to the argument. Tuba's can make an impact, but then again so do MPC's. Something else not to be overlooked is just how our face is constructed. Sometimes, our sound is literally just how we end up sounding.....in my opinion at least.

Something I often wonder is everyone talks about "sound concept" and then people fight with how they sound to achieve their "sound concept"....however, maybe if we as players embraced our OWN sound, created through personal development and physiological structure/development, we would have more progress. I often see too many players fight with their sound because it doesn't sound like ***** tubist. If it isn't a bad, closed teeth sound for example, the solution is to embrace it rather than fight it. It'll make the road to being a better player much easier. Plus, how can a player really judge their "sound concept" in a good way without constantly recording themselves? After all, most of us won't argue that we sound MUCH different to other people or on a recording than we do to ourselves while playing and when our bodies are behind/part of the instrument.

Basically, I think people worry too much about their "sound concept (and color)" and not enough about having a good sound with resonance and achieving good technical development. (Of course, I realize this is a LONG tangent away from the original posters question).

Just my 35 cents worth...(adjusted for inflation of course)

Neptune wrote:Whilst visiting Sam Gnagey's place last month there was the opportunity to compare the bell of a old Holton 345 to that of a modern M-W Fafner. They were as far as could be seen of exactly the same profile, yet one is supposedly a classic American BAT and the other a leading German Kaiser model.

I really wonder about this similarity, as I tend to consider rotary and piston tubas different species of instruments.

I haven’t tried the models you refer to, but one certain other type of instruments is among my definite no-no’s. It is the bell-up & 3 top piston baritone with fairly wide bell throat and not much flare. One might say the bell proportions are the same as those of the oval Bb Tenorhorn. I like that oval instrument because of its ease of playing melodies over a very wide range especially up-wards, whereas the straight piston variant is horribly out of tune in its scales as well as in its overtones. The later leads to a not very well focused sound. I have met no high-end variants of that piston baritone, only bad samples by German, Czech, Dutch, Belgian, and French makers.

Klaus

tuben wrote:Listen closely at 1:50

Is that not the organ joining at 1:50??? I hear the tuba from 1:01

No organ.

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:No organ.

Must drop to lower register? Anyone got part to check?

I regularly use a Conn 20J and a Rudy 5/4 BBb with a very large deep titanium mpc made for me by G&W. The Rudy, according to my colleagues in the State Street Traditional Jazz Band, has a "symphonic" sound, whereas the Conn has a "buttery" sound. I don't know the reason(s) for this but I'm very content to use either of these horns in gigs and to just play for my own amusement. I bring this up merely because the Rudy is supposedly "German", the Conn supposedly "American", I guess. The Conn is a little freer blowing, the Rudy has slightly more presence, at least to me. Both horns have excellent intonation.

Neptune wrote:

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:No organ.

Must drop to lower register? Anyone got part to check?

It sounds like the trombone voicing changes also. Specifically, the 3rd/Bass moves down and doubles the Tuba part an octave above.

I cannot be entirely sure, as the notes at that spot of the recording are not long enough for my ears making a sure analysis, but I have a strong suspicion that there is a low range fifth involved. Either between the tuba and the bass trombone or between the two lowest trombones. To me the brightest portion of the lowest note sounds like being a resultant difference note. If it is the trombones playing the fifth, the resultant note may double the tuba’s note.

I am not sure about my wording, but our organ building TubeNetter will be able to expand on this matter.

Klaus

what instrument is the tuba player using in the youtube movie?

Wim

oedipoes wrote:what instrument is the tuba player using in the youtube movie?

Wim

Melton 198. I think I can make out the 5th valve, but i'm not sure. If no 5th valve its a 197. Alexander von Puttkamer is his name. He is a beast of a player. Nice to finally hear some foundation to the brass in the Berlin Philharmonic again.

As far as the organ goes, Robert is right. No organ called for in the score. Although the basses in that orchestra put out a sound you could build a skyscraper on also, you can clearly hear the distinctive tuba timbre. What a sound!

Neptune wrote:

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:No organ.

Must drop to lower register? Anyone got part to check?

It sounds to me like the bass trombone and tuba are in unison, in the staff, starting at @1:18.
At 1:50, the tuba drops down 8va.

bloke wrote:German = plays F tuba / doesn't screw around on tubenet / doesn't speak American anyway

American = buys very expensive out-of-tune made-in-Germany CC tuba which sits in the corner while posting on tubenet

This gets my vote for the finest Tubenet post I've seen in a l-o-n-g time.

Absolutely hilarious...probably because it is so true.

I've been listening to a recording of Erich Korngold's opera "Das Wunder der Heliane" which has a very large orchestra. The recording dates from 1993 and is done by the Radio Symphony Orchestra of Berlin. Whoever the tuba player was, it is the most thrilling and beautiful sound I have ever heard from a tuba. I suppose that would be "German sound"? Does anyone know who the player was in that orchestra? I'll buy that guy a beer anytime.

Ace wrote:I've been listening to a recording of Erich Korngold's opera "Das Wunder der Heliane" which has a very large orchestra. The recording dates from 1993 and is done by the Radio Symphony Orchestra of Berlin. Whoever the tuba player was, it is the most thrilling and beautiful sound I have ever heard from a tuba. I suppose that would be "German sound"? Does anyone know who the player was in that orchestra? I'll buy that guy a beer anytime.

Would that have been Richard Nahatzki?

ZNC Dandy wrote:

Ace wrote:I've been listening to a recording of Erich Korngold's opera "Das Wunder der Heliane" which has a very large orchestra. The recording dates from 1993 and is done by the Radio Symphony Orchestra of Berlin. Whoever the tuba player was, it is the most thrilling and beautiful sound I have ever heard from a tuba. I suppose that would be "German sound"? Does anyone know who the player was in that orchestra? I'll buy that guy a beer anytime.

Would that have been Richard Nahatzki?

Thanks, ZNC. Nahatzki may be the player. I found he is mentioned on Floyd Cooley's site as the tubist in the Berlin Radio Orchestra as well as other groups.

ZNC Dandy wrote:

Ace wrote:I've been listening to a recording of Erich Korngold's opera "Das Wunder der Heliane" which has a very large orchestra. The recording dates from 1993 and is done by the Radio Symphony Orchestra of Berlin. Whoever the tuba player was, it is the most thrilling and beautiful sound I have ever heard from a tuba. I suppose that would be "German sound"? Does anyone know who the player was in that orchestra? I'll buy that guy a beer anytime.

Would that have been Richard Nahatzki?

He is playing a Nirschl CSO York copy, according to the Floyd Cooley site... how interesting that his sound is described as "german sound"...
That's the world upside down...

Wim