Another valve oil substitute

[tofu]

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[Art Hovey]

Valve oil and water do not mix. Lots of water condenses inside a tuba when it is being played. The oil and water do not seem to get along well together in the pistons.

Right now I am using Dawn concentrated liquid dishwashing detergent because that is what I found in my kitchen. At first I tried Kirkland body wash that I found in my shower stall because I was amazed at how slimy it felt. I switched to the detergent because I remembered that it is supposed to work better than soap in water that has impurities, but both liquids seem to work equally well. I imagine that it would be best to avoid liquids that have hand lotions and perfumes added.

I don’t know about the optimum concentration; that may depend on how snugly the pistons fit. I just put a few drops into a clean and empty valve oil bottle (small) and fill the rest with tap water. I assume that liquid detergent in its concentrated form would be too thick and would cause the piston to be sluggish, but I did recently put a dab of the full-strength stuff on the third piston of a dried-out junk tuba that I was trying out, and it worked perfectly for the rest of the week.

I don't think a spray bottle is necessary. The soapy water flows quickly by capillary action into the very thin space between moving parts. Usually I just run a few drops down the valve stem with the piston half-down. Sometimes if it is initially stuck in that position it pops up all by itself as soon as the liquid gets in there.
Once in a while if I feel that a little dirt has found its way into the piston I take it out and wipe it off with a clean paper towel or cloth and then put some soapy water on it just as we do with regular oil.

One piston on one of my tubas tends to get sluggish when I practice a lot of fast chromatic stuff. When I pull it out I find that the liquid has become foamy. I am now experimenting with a weaker concentration to reduce that effect. There may also be another type of detergent (perhaps for dishwashers) that has an anti-foaming agent; eventually I will try to find it. Maybe someone here knows something about it?

As for the rate of wear, I have no idea. The stainless steel Bohm und Meinl pistons on my helicon have been in heavy use for about 20 years now, sometimes with oil, sometimes with saliva, more recently with soapy water, and often with no lubrication at all. Except for the valve guides, they show no wear yet that I can see. Valve guides are easy to replace.

As for corrosion, I don't see any green forming in my valve slides, and none of my solder joints have rotted out yet.

I don't know why manufacturers all use oil these days, but I do know that a century ago the lower valve caps on cornets always had nipples to facilitate the deposition of saliva as a lubricant. I also know that trombonists have been using water-based soap-like lubricants instead of oil for a long time, and some of them have tried everything. Manufacturers have been coming up with all kinds of trombone stuff since Pond's changed its cold cream formula, but they are all sort of like soaps.

[TubaBobH]

This is a very interesting valve oil substitute that seems intuitively plausible. I have been using the Hetman Synthetic Classic Piston Lubricant 3 valve oil for the last few years on my King 1241, and I have been quite satisfied with my valve performance. However, that having been said, I will readily admit that I have always found somewhat disconcerting 1] the "yellow tinged" spit that emanates from the spit valves 2] the gray "gunk" that forms in the top and bottom valve caps and 3] the yellowish "film" that forms inside some of the piston tubing ports.

Therefore, last night I cleaned one of my empty 2 oz valve oil bottles, filled it with tab water and added six drops of Dawn detergent. I then thoroughly cleaned my pistons and piston casing interiors, and applied my new valve oil substitute to the pistons. The valves are currently working as silky smooth as ever. (Granted, it has only been 24 hours.) I will be very curious what the pistons and the inside of the valve casings look like when I give them their monthly cleaning. Since I use Dawn detergent when I give my entire tuba a thorough cleaning every six months, it stands to reason that, from this point forward, I should experience none of the above three symptoms. This valve oil substitute really sounds almost too good to be true, especially when you compare the cost of a bottle of this concoction (essentially cost free) with the cost of a bottle of Hetman (certainly not cost free).

[iiipopes]

Does it dissolve beer? If I can find something to keep the valves lightning fast and still drink beer during the "fun" gigs I do, I've got to consider that!

Spoken like a true man.

Thanks.

Oh, and BTW: no, the bubbles at Welk come out of conventional commercial bubble machines. One night in getting set up, I almost tripped over one backstage as I was stowing my gear getting ready for a show.

[Art Hovey]

Since my last post on this thread I have experimented with Kirkland detergent powder for dishwashers. It seems to have an anti-foaming agent, but it also tends to corrode brass about the way that salt water does. (NO GOOD!
I tried cleaning a piece of brass with steel wool, and then applying a drop of tap water, a drop of Dawn diluted with water, and a drop of the dishwasher solution to three spots on the clean brass. The dishwasher stuff left a salt-like residue, and the others did not.

[hald]

I started using Superlube, per the suggestion by Tubatinker in another thread. I think it is a fantastic product.

I've considered synthetic motor oil on valves- but all the ones I've tried have an unacceptable smell. Does ultra pure lamp oil have a good smell? Scented? I just wondered; I may try it.

What brand of dish soap is recommended?

-hald

[Dan Schultz]

I started using Superlube, per the suggestion by Tubatinker in another thread. I think it is a fantastic product.

I've considered synthetic motor oil on valves- but all the ones I've tried have an unacceptable smell. Does ultra pure lamp oil have a good smell? Scented? I just wondered; I may try it.

What brand of dish soap is recommended?

-hald

You might qualify that 'SuperLube' is my choice for SLIDES. It's waaaay to heavy for valves.

Ultra-pure lamp oil has no smell. Some of the lamp oils are scented but I stay away from anything that is smelly or has color to it. A few drops of motor oil in several ounces of lamp oil will give it a little more body and 'staying power'. You'll want to experiment with the getting the right mix as too much motor oil will slow down the pistons. It is nice to be able to adjust the mix for worn pistons.

[Dan Schultz]

.....This is a very inexpensive inert petroleum product like mineral oil or baby oil but with lower viscosity.....

Most cheap valve oils are refined kerosene.... or parafin if you wish. Same stuff as ultra-pure lamp oil.

[toobagrowl]

In my short time playing a valved brass instrument I've bought four or five bottles of "valve oil", each a different brand but all seeming to work equally well. One of them smelled of wintergreen. They've all been water-white. My impression is that they're all pure or close-to-pure light liquid paraffin. This is a very inexpensive inert petroleum product like mineral oil or baby oil but with lower viscosity, mainly used for making medicines or cosmetics. It doesn't oxidize or turn to a sticky gum as vegetable oils tend to do.

Has anyone here used baby oil or mineral oil?
I have used Blue Juice, Al Cass, pure lamp oil, etc. They are all too thin/watery. Blue Juice and lamp oil both stink too.
I am using Hetman's "Classic" and it works better than the above mentioned oils for the old worn pistons on my Eb tubas. But there is a greenish film that builds up in the valve ports and sometimes gets between the pistons and casings and causes the valves to be sticky....especially the first valve. So I have to wipe the film crud off every now and then. Wondering if baby oil would work on old pistons

[Søren]

I do not think that using detergents should harm your horn. I would though be careful of the pH and the amount of salt in the detergent solution. Either might accelerate corrosion in the horn. Come to think of it, using a non-ionic detergent might be preferable to the SDS or SLS found in normal cleaning products.

[Michael Bush]

Has anyone here used baby oil or mineral oil?
I have used Blue Juice, Al Cass, pure lamp oil, etc. They are all too thin/watery. Blue Juice and lamp oil both stink too.
I am using Hetman's "Classic" and it works better than the above mentioned oils for the old worn pistons on my Eb tubas. But there is a greenish film that builds up in the valve ports and sometimes gets between the pistons and casings and causes the valves to be sticky....especially the first valve. So I have to wipe the film crud off every now and then. Wondering if baby oil would work on old pistons

When I had old pistons, I used a mixture of lamp oil and food-grade mineral oil. Worked great.

[toobagrowl]

Thanks I'm gonna try cleaning the pistons first and then applying a couple drops of baby oil (baby oil = lightly scented mineral oil) on each piston and see how that works. If that doesn't work, I'll try the lamp oil + baby oil formula.

[Art Hovey]

After experimenting with soaps and detergents and anti-freeze for a while I have moved on to pure glycerin diluted with water. It's odorless, non-toxic, available in drug stores, and works as well as anything.

For a tuba with old and well-worn pistons, "break-free gun oil" works well. It does not dry out when the instrument sits in a case for long periods. I think it was Al Baer who recommended it here, diluted with ultra-pure lamp oil. I found it on display in a local gun shop. It's also very good on tuning slides.

[Art Hovey]

There is a solvent called "Goo-Gone" that I found at Homey Depot which softens the "Lime" pretty well without damaging lacquer or plastic parts.

[toobagrowl]

I've been using pure lamp oil on my piston tubas for a while with varying degrees of success depending on piston condition of each tuba. I recently mixed a few drops of 3-in-1 oil with the pure lamp oil and it seems to work better for the more worn pistons.
And just today I tried the Art Hovey method of Dawn liquid detergent (blue) on my "main" Eb tuba. One drop on each piston. So far, so good I will 'gauge' it over time to see how it works out. At least it "cleans" the pistons as I play, and it smells good!
It's fun experimenting with different 'formulas'.

Bump

[toobagrowl]

^Don't you just grab whatever left-over valve oil that is in some school horn case? I seem to remember you stating that several times. Yeah......that doesn't always work for all piston tubas