TubeNet

We gotta remember one more thing...the "bass tuba" of Wagner's day may not have been his ideal, but what was available. Undoubtedly it wasn't the same size or quality of sound as today's instruments. I really wish there were some instruments from the 1840/50s around so someone could give a true demonstration of the sound.

The weight of the part, to me, calls for contrabass. I wonder if the BATs of the day had such pitch problems in some ranges that they were unusable. Or, did players gripe about fingerings?
It's been pointed out many times that trumpets, trombones, heck almost any instrument other than strings have evolved a LOT in the last 150 years. I"d speculate that even the actual strings have a different tone color now than in Wagner's day.

As a one key tuba player (F, my BBb is unusable for any legit purposes due to size) I see no problem playing anything on any tuba.

RULES?!?
You mean there are RULES?!
Why am I always the last to know?
The biggest deviation I regularly commit is bringing an F tuba to a band. You know what's funny? The conductor (and assistant conductor, who is a tuba player) of one of the ensembles (in which I am the only tuba player most of the time) didn't even notice it wasn't a BBb or CC. The trombone section actually likes it for the clarity of sound. The conductors in my other ensembles like it because it does add a little clarity/specificity to the sound of the section. Now, that was with my little Cerveny F. I'm sure it would be even better with Ms. Willson.
BUT, I have never brought a bazooka to an air pistol range . . . I'd really like to know how it turns out for you, and to hear what the audience thought after the performance . . .

Don Harry strongly suggested I use a Mirafone 190 BBb on Hungarian March over the same model Yammie F you have for my undergrad conservatory auditions. It really worked on that horn, with its cutting sound and excellent high register, and I made 2 out of 3 auditions (dang you, @#$iard)

When I successfully played it again at a grad school audition this past spring, I used the 181 Mirafone F you are familiar with on; the big Kalison has too much roundness up there to make it work in the original context (But I bet Don coulda made it work!)

If it means only having to carry one horn to the gig, then by all means. I don't think there are rules. I once did the first half of Lohengrin on F tuba and the second half of it on CC tuba. It worked great, and was easier to play. You have a contract, do what you want. I do think, though, Dutchman is a CC tuba tune, for what it's worth.

TonyTuba wrote:.....I do think, though, Dutchman is a CC tuba tune, for what it's worth.

I looked in Abe Torchinsky's excerpt book, and the part is marked simply "tuba", although the markings of "tuba", "bass tuba", and "contrabass tuba" may well be erroneous markings, decided upon by a publisher, after the fact.

Dutchman looks very much, to me, like it is written with an F tuba in mind.

On a slightly different topic:

I wonder if Wagner only (mostly?) wanted contrabass, when there were Wagner tubas were around, to make a complete "tuba choir"?

I have played Flying Dutchman on Eb and more recently F - must try on CC next time around.

For breaking rules - I have done the other way around - played Wagner Rhieingold on a Besson 981 Eb when that was all I had.

Neptune wrote:I have played Flying Dutchman on Eb

Works great on Eb in my experience.

I played the Music Man a few years back on bass trombone, and played a few songs on Eb tuba. I think I played it on about 10 or so songs. Part of the big Shi***** bit (playing with the bari sax), Well Fargo wagon, the last big 76 Trombones tune,... I don't remember what else. It sounded really nice. Wells Fargo especially sounded like a giant flugelhorn. Cool!

I have also played bass trombone on tuba parts in a concert band (both before and during the time I had a tuba). The tuba-bassbone blend was awesome, especially when we played that Tschenkofflsdihhlhid piece. I have also played bass trombone in quintet and prefer that over tuba. I also played Fountains once with a tenor trombonist with me playing the tuba part on bass trombone- wicked!

I tend to use what it says on the paper music as only a guide, but then decide by looking at the range covered, considering historical precedent and listening to recordings to hear the role of the tuba in the overall texture.

I have previously played Planets on Besson Eb and Neptune - IMHO sounded much better on the latter. However, it would be interesting to try playing on F - some of the very low notes, such as the fff E natural at the end of Uranus would be in the pedal register on F, and therefore potentially more open than on Eb, or CC tuba

What has generally happened about string sections since The Planets was composed? Numbers of players? Instrument set-up?

What has happened to trombone sections through the same period?

Klaus

Most orchestras that I know of have expanded their string sections.

String instruments have been ‘optimized’ to take heavier strings with a higher string tension.

Klaus

tuben wrote:NOW the instrument families are treated more like terraced dynamic machines.

I don't think that is entirely fair to the high standard of modern orchestras. I certainly frequently hear quiet and restrained brass. However, the percussion is often too prominent for my liking, but I know that is down to modern taste. People's musical concept has entirely changed since the days of Holst as a result of pop music and modern hi-fi's with sub-woofers. The world has changed. Possibly, music now needs to be louder and more dramatic to capture a modern audience's attention? A stronger bass is now expected, which is why 6/4 tubas are becoming more used.

'fesh'nul orchestra’ means?

I believe in the quality of your smallish string sections. I also remember you thinking that half of the strings in a certain prestige orchestra kind of freewheeled once you heard them. Yet my point is that the quality of ‘your’ players also is found in most high grade large orchestras.

Many years ago, 25 or more, Danish TV sent a feature on Barry Tuckwell, who then divided his year in months as touring horn soloist, months touring Australia with his original Australian quintet mates plus a pianist, and then months as the conductor in residence of the Tasmanian orchestra. That orchestra was really small, with 6 primi and down from there in the strings. They played The Ruslan and Ludmilla ouverture by Glinka. The strings worked very hard, and then there were these totally disproportionate trombones with model numbers like 42, 88H, 50B coming to mind. The 42 had been OK, but on the bass part.

Klaus

bloke wrote:only two [hot-dog] bass players, btw

I played in orchestra with only two basses where the conductor came over to me and said, "we're short of basses, so give as much tuba as you like to give foundation!"

Bob Kolada wrote:I have also played bass trombone on tuba parts in a concert band

I'm glad you liked it. But I am reminded of Fred Young's description of a bass trombone's spectral content when playing in the tuba register: "sounds like a hammer on a frying pan." I've never been more annoyed than when a guest conductor decided that during the piece he was not conducting, he pulled out his bass trombone and blatted his way through the tuba part. Then, he looked at me to get psychological reinforcement. He was disappointed. It was clear to me that the only reason he played that part instead of the (needed) bass trombone part was because he could.

Rick "who feels about the say way about a tuba playing the Stars and Stripes piccolo solo" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

Bob Kolada wrote:I have also played bass trombone on tuba parts in a concert band

I'm glad you liked it. But I am reminded of Fred Young's description of a bass trombone's spectral content when playing in the tuba register: "sounds like a hammer on a frying pan." I've never been more annoyed than when a guest conductor decided that during the piece he was not conducting, he pulled out his bass trombone and blatted his way through the tuba part. Then, he looked at me to get psychological reinforcement. He was disappointed. It was clear to me that the only reason he played that part instead of the (needed) bass trombone part was because he could.

Therefore... that outcome you experienced is the only possible one?

Bob"not denying that some just crank it out on such parts"Kolada

tuben wrote:These bass tuba parts only played on F rules are arbitrary.

However, it seems that (in the US anyways) "contrabass parts" are mandatory on contrabass. Why can't I play Prok. 5, the Ride, Fountains,...on a big Eb (don't really know F that well! ) to good effect without getting flack (spelling?)? I'd think that a bit of edge on those peices would definitely be in character with the not-so-nice mood of those pieces.

Who here would perform The Planets on F tuba? The part says Bass Tuba, and the standard orchestral tuba in England at the time was in F. (Often a Barlow system F).

I would! Though honestly I would prefer to play it on Eb since that is what I've worked it up on, but I'd play it on F too if I could play them (working on that!).

Bob Kolada wrote:Therefore... that outcome you experienced is the only possible one?

I said I was glad you liked it.

But I wonder if you obtained the honest opinion of the tuba section to supplement your own.

Rick "who has never heard a bass trombone sound like a tuba, but there's a first time for everything" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

Bob Kolada wrote:Therefore... that outcome you experienced is the only possible one?

I said I was glad you liked it.

But I wonder if you obtained the honest opinion of the tuba section to supplement your own.

Rick "who has never heard a bass trombone sound like a tuba, but there's a first time for everything" Denney

I did not say that it sounded like a tuba, only that it sounded good with tubas ("German" tubas, as if it makes any difference). And they also liked it.


Rick, I think you need to play with better bass trombonists (not to say that I am a "better" trombonist!).



(See how the standard protects itself!! )

Bob Kolada wrote:Rick, I think you need to play with better bass trombonists

Considering the band was lacking a bass trombonist on that occasion, he would have been a better bass trombonist had it been playing the bass trombone part. He was a good bass trombonist--just ask him. But when holding a bass trombone, he was a lousy tuba player.

I do recall once covering a bass trombone part with a Yamaha F tuba, at the request of the trombone section. We were playing Festive Overture and without that part covered it was not music. So, I suppose the cosmic balance was righting itself.

Rick "a lousy bass trombone player even when playing a bass trombone" Denney

Rick Denney wrote:

Bob Kolada wrote:I have also played bass trombone on tuba parts in a concert band

I'm glad you liked it. But I am reminded of Fred Young's description of a bass trombone's spectral content when playing in the tuba register: "sounds like a hammer on a frying pan." I've never been more annoyed than when a guest conductor decided that during the piece he was not conducting, he pulled out his bass trombone and blatted his way through the tuba part. Then, he looked at me to get psychological reinforcement. He was disappointed. It was clear to me that the only reason he played that part instead of the (needed) bass trombone part was because he could.

Rick "who feels about the say way about a tuba playing the Stars and Stripes piccolo solo" Denney

I had the opposite problem last May. The ensemble was a reunion of players who had played in a college orchestra (how I got involved is a long, strange story, but...there I was). Since I lugged my tuba so far cross-country, the conductor issued me a copy of the Bass Trombone part for one piece. So...should I play it...or not? During the first rehearsal, there was no Bass Trombone player - so I covered the part. At the second rehearsal, he showed up, so I listened and thought about it. At the performance, I decided that nothing good would come from my doubling his part, and sat out.

I play in a couple of groups that are "instrumentation challenged", so I get a lot of practice playing the cues. Almost always, if sounds better when the right instrument shows up. Sometimes it's fun to play the cues - but if I *never* play the string bass part for Russian Christmas Music it will be too soon for me (2-beat? OK! 4-beat? even better!! but 6-beat? no, thanks. A man has to breathe sometime.)

but...Stars&Stripes? c'mon Rick - you gotta love it. It's as beautiful as Dogs Playing Poker on black velvet!